For those who feel personally criticized...

[jbeany]

This board is called "I hate Dialysis" and clearly announces itself as a forum to vent criticism, frustration, pain, disappointment.  In fact, that's its only reason for being.  If people want to talk about the positives of being on dialysis, there are other boards.

IHD's mission statement from the first page -
Welcome to a site for patients by patients. Epoman started ihatedialysis.com to stop having his posts censored or deleted by corporate run or sponsored dialysis sites. He created the site so others could have a voice on the internet free from censorship. Do not let the sites name fool you, we are not about being negative, we just hate dialysis.
We've got entire posts about dialysis humor, dialysis cartoons, helpful suggestions for diets, ideas for things to do while you are stuck in the chair, and thousands of posts trying to help people with every phase and strange symptom of dialysis.  There is plenty of positivity on here.  One of the pluses, as Epo designed it, was that you could talk about the minuses without getting erased, but that doesn't make this an entirely negative board. 

So when newbies complain that people posting negatives about dialysis providers are disturbing to them, I personally am concerned.  I come here wanting to have open discussion about the negatives of the economics of dialysis and particularly how it impacts patients.  But I do not want to add to the insecurity and anxiety of dialysis patients.  What to do?

We've had this discussion with a lot of activist newbies.  They come on here very fired up about wanting dialysis patients to stand up and fight the system.  Someone at one point even insisted we all needed to go on strike together and stop going to dialysis until the care improved, of all things!  How we were going to change things when we were dead was not answered.

 See, the problem is that too many dialysis patients are fighting to stay alive, even the ones in good centers.  It's very hard to go full on and fight a system that you need in order to keep living - especially when the process is exhausting and your health and energy are poor.  I've heard plenty of negatives about dialysis providers, and I do find them disturbing, but not surprising.  It's a system run by a combination of big business and government - of course it's totally f***ed up. 

So RC, while I can understand that the economics of the system both fascinate you and aggravate you, you have to understand that not everyone can handle dealing with one more problem.  Dialysis patients need to control their diet, their fluid, their weight, their own finances, their family issues, and their own lives before they can work on the bigger, nationwide issues.  It seems like an impossible problem to most, so they focus on what they can handle and don't bother with the rest.  I read, and answered, a number of your posts, RC.  Like Meinuk, I support your efforts and wish to change the system - I'm just not able to devote my energy to it.  You have to give room for that viewpoint as well.

When the thread was shut down before this VERY core issue could be processed by the group, 

Oh, I'd say most of us have processed the issue.  We've just put it on the bottom of the list of things we need to panic about.  Little details like figuring out how much potassium we can eat before our heart stops beating tend to get bumped to the top of the list instead.

it was obvious these are personal issues of the moderators, who have lost sight of the mission and development of thought in the forum.  I think it's sad, but this is what happens on every board on the internet that is moderated by people who have good intentions but no experience really dealing with world views and thought systems unlike their own.   I have seen it. 

So the huge group of people who come on here and manage every day to have discussions about religion, politics and dozens of other topics from vastly divided viewpoints without being rude or getting locked down by the moderators don't have any experience really dealing with world views and thought systems unlike their own either?   We had a large discussion about religion between an atheist, a humanist, and a number of born-again Christians, and yet no one was rude during the entire conversation about Harold Camping and his end of the world announcements.  If we can do it over a hot button issue such as religion, no doubt we can about government and big-business spending as well - but EVERYONE has to be respectful - including the original poster.  The moderators only lock threads that are becoming horribly mean and rude.  When they sink to a certain level, there's rarely any going back.  Do they ever lock things that might have cleared themselves up on their own? Probably.  But they have to make a judgment call at some point.  If you stick around long enough, you can ask to join the moderators yourself, and try making some of those calls with them.  Sluff, Karol, Kitkat and the rest have been around since the member count was in the hundreds, and the posts were just beginning - those who have been here the longest have seen how Epo wanted it to work and have done their best to keep it up. 

Having watched Epo in action myself, Kit's right - he'd have kicked some butt on some of these threads.  With Nina right behind, ready to poke someone in the eye with that tiara and choke 'em with the boa as well!

[Bruno]

Okarol
You do a great job and I appreciate it. The only advice I might have to those who object to your moderation is "If you don't liike it, move on"
Personally, I detest the rants on IHD but I know they are of value to some people, so I never contribute to them...I just walk away.
The only reason I'm on this thread is because I want to support Okaral, we need her a lot more than some of the whingers in this place. 

[RichardMEL]

wow. just wow.

I am going to post this with my moderator hat on, just so we're all clear, but I only speak for myself and not sluff, karol or any of the other mods.

There seem to be some complaints that IHD admins are "censoring" users by either locking threads, moving them (?!) or something like that. THIS IS NOT THE CASE!!!!!!!

As others have said, Epoman was all about ALL views and opinions, and I know that as a moderator of this forum myself I am more than happy to see any and all views and opinions expressed.

*BUT*

(yes there's always a but!)

These discussions need to be civil and not drag down into the personal. Noah, for example, crossed the line in my view by his declaration of karol's supposed "issues" which was a horrible thing for me to read. That is NOT acceptable!! By all means, disagree that a topic, which is clearly not related to dialysis, was moved to the off-topic section (which is where it belongs!) is OK, but calling someone out on a personal level is not cool.

In a similar vein the fast-becoming-old-chestnut of the Andrew/PatDown "saga" regarding that dialysis unit it was also suggested that we (as in IHD admins) did not want a discussion on the various topics brought up there - eg: Andrew likes his unit, PD suggesting the stats say otherwise because DaVita is bad mkay, and so on - well that is just not true. What we objected to, or at least *I* did in my reading of it after the fact, was that it had gotten personal on BOTH sides, and then posts were edited that it was unclear what had really been written in public view previously. All of this has been covered in other threads.

There are pleny of less-moderated forums out there that allow flame wars to be fired back and forth endlessly - if that's the look you like - feel free to head on over.

I'm all for robust debate, but not when it becomes personal and the argument is no longer about the message,  but the messenger. Accusing people of being "plants" or "DaVita haters" - or whatever - doesn't help anything and certainly doesn't add to the debate.

And just as this thread, which of course has gone off-topic from the original topic, though I can't help but wonder if the original post by PD was perhaps directed at certain other users as a comment rather than a "fun quiz." but be that as it may, that's just my thought. Anyway this thread has gone off the topic of the quiz and is all about the gripes with the administration of this site. It's OK in my book to discuss rationally(if possible?) concerns or even criticisms of the way things are handled, but it should be done without the need to resort to personal attacks like suggesting someone has "issues" or anything else.

Some may even argue that resorting to such comments actually reveals more about the writer than the target.

I wonder if the admin team just left IHD alone for a week, a month, however long and let the weeds grow and don't perform any of the many tasks that go on in the background how it would look. Further if there are users out there that feel they could do a better job, why not put in an application?! We can always use more help!

by the way, for those that think karol, or sluff, or any other mod has "abused" the administration priviges ... clearly you weren't members during Epo's time (RIP). This thread wouldn't even exist if he was still around, because quite a few would have been out on their ears long ago. The current team do a very good job of putting up with a lot. The mere fact that I can write this post in response to several open attacks should be proof enough tha there's hardly any abuse of powers going on - if users were kicked off, threads locked because an admin didn't like what was said about them.. then yes, I would argue that could be an abuse.. but nobody's done that and this has been allowed to go on.

then of course there's the other argument to "just don't feed the trolls" - well guess I didn't listen to that one.

RichardMEL, Moderator

EDITED: To correct my feel/feed typo

[monrein]

OK RM, I'm getting personal here!  I think you're not supposed to "feed" the trolls but you being you, of course it comes out that you're not going to "feel" them.   

[galvo]

ROFL 

[RealityCheck]

  Someone posted and said, I love my clnic.  Someone else said, Well, take a look at the quality index of statistics collected on the company providing your care by an independent news source.  The person who liked his clinic became vituperative.  He used insulting language.  Others tried to step around the inappropriate attacks [because they are from a patient responding from an understandable vulnerability who feels threatened and angry] and talk about the issues raised by Pat.  The moderator shut the thread down for the second time.  Now it has moved here.
The question of whether it is possible to discuss the Propublic information Pat introduced without upsetting someone like the poster who became angry, and what to do when they do use childlike insults--which I forgive them for doing under the circumstances, is not answered.  Probably this thread will be shut down for criticizing the moderators when it should actually address this question.

[Meinuk]

Ok, now I am amused.

For anyone who want a recap, this is what we are talking about:


My Clinic is great:  http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=23211.0

To OKarol RE: My Clinic is great:  http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=23225.0 

Conversation is NOT CENSORED here.  Threads may be locked, but they are still available to be read.

IHD is Pro "Pro Publica".

We are all here to learn.

To even suggest that there is abuse in moderation is laughable.

People got their "panties in a twist" (to quote Big Sky), and now we just need to shake our heads and ask WTF.

Richard was right, don't "feel" the trolls. And Monrien was right, don't feed them either.

Let's move on, stop suggesting that there are hidden agendas and go forward to make the world of renal replacement a better place for ALL of us.

Get over it people.

In lieu of beating a thoroughly dead horse, right now, I wish that I could lock a thread.

[okarol]

Well, now that dialysis has been mentioned, it is time to move this thread again (yes, we do that!)

But for today I will let it lie.

Have a good day all!

[boswife]

Yes, a good day to all 

[rsudock]

LOVE IHD and all the hard work the Mods do!!

If IHD needs help moderating I am more then willing to step up!! Be a honor!

xo,
R

[RealityCheck]

What was there in what Andrew said that would suggest he is a troll?  What is the difference between what a troll would do and what Andrew did?  There are people who do love their clinics and don't want to hear anything bad about the system managing them.

[lmunchkin]

The subject is: Does what Pat Downs did on this post belong in a Dialysis Discussion section.  I did not see the word Dialysis used so therefore, Okarol, IMO, did right by putting this in the off topic section.

The moderators are not perfect!  But they do an excellent job!  In regards to the "I love my Clinic" post by Andrew, I disagreed with Sluff about blocking Pat due to personal attacks. Doesnt mean I disagree all the time with him! He is generally right.

You have to have rules and guidelines to go by!  Okarol does do a great job and she has personally helped me alot with her posts, but to say she is inebit, that is personal!  I know that Noah is another very passionate person on this site.  I learn from him too, but he really should apologize to Okarol. 

Our moderators due an awesome job.  Yes, this did belong in "Off Topic" section.  I took the test Pat, and I was Half & Half!  Does that mean Im 50% right or 50% wrong?  LOL.  Seriously guys, lighten up a bit!


lmunchkin       

P.S.  Does make for interesting reading though, huh?

[RichardMEL]

What was there in what Andrew said that would suggest he is a troll?  What is the difference between what a troll would do and what Andrew did?  There are people who do love their clinics and don't want to hear anything bad about the system managing them.

erm I don't believe anyone suggested Andrew was a "troll" (while one member did suggest he was a "plant" which i felt was excessive but that's just my personal view). I certainly didn't name anyone who may or may not be a troll.

Some people go to internet forums with certain agendas and like to stir up trouble for their own reasons - often not related to the specific topics at hand. Again I am not suggesting anyone in particular on IHD(or any other forum) but it often happens. I've seen it on many forums.

Anyway I like girls, so if I'm going to "feel" a troll she better be cute!! 

[kellyt]

    I agree with what RM said..  "wow.  just wow"   The Moderators do a fantastic job.     I understand that people come on here to both praise and gripe about their clinic, care, medications, llab, friends, family, etc.  All posts are valuable, but every post has its place.  That is something that was decided long ago.   I also know that not everyone will agree, but such is life.  I'm hoping the ones criticizing are just having a bad day(s) and that things get better real soon.     

[Chris]

   I agree with what RM said..  "wow.  just wow"   

About thhe troll part at the end? 
 
Well if your going o feel a cute troll, you better feed her 

[RichardMEL]

now now. this thread is going off topic from the off topic it had changed to (does two wrongs make a right?). Wow look, I just saw the "lock/unlock thread" button..... 

(this post is intended to be taken in jest in case the laughing emoticon wasn't clear)

[Jean]

YES, Richard it is feed the troll first and then.... the other. In regard to posts villifying our Okarol, REALLY? Have you ever met the woman?? Do you know what is going on in her life??? No, obviously you do not. Still, she works her little hind end off, all for us!!! Not for her, for us. There are no grounds for criticizing her or any of the other mods. If you dont like it, please accept our invitation to leave. And I thought you were such a smart guy!!!

[Des]

just wanted to say...

Thanks for my daily entertainment.

 

[paris]

Just my      I am probably a control freak -- Hi, I am Paris, and I like to be in control!        I've been around here for a long time and was privileged to have joined when Epoman was still alive.  That is why I feel so strongly about keeping his site true to his wishes.  During those years, I have seen 2 mini mutinies.   They started with language and name calling.  Then it got very vicious. The members were fairly new and didn't like how things were run.  They wanted to change things and figured bullying was the way to make change.  You would be amazed at how many private messages moderators and administrators receive.  Silly amounts some days!  There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes.

A couple of points : no post is ever deleted. They may be moved to archives if necessary.  This is a private owned site and we pay for all the room we use and all the support the site needs to stay up and running.    Epoman started the site so there was a safe place for kidney patients to go to.   There are several other kidney sights out there. I visited many and found a lot of chaos: posts in wrong sections, no order to some of them, etc.  So, they are there for all who want that kind of a forum.   Always read the site rules before joining to see if the site is a good choice for you.   Also, don't assume you know more than the existing members --- you will be surprised how much members here have been through.    All opinions are welcome, but without being nasty or insulting.   

As for "plants"; believe me, the administrators go over every member's name when they join.  We have seen lots of people "fishing", some organ sellers, magic healers,  -- we have seen it all.  By now, it is easy to spot those and it is easy to spot someone who is just here to create trouble. 

Play nice, Respect the team that gives countless volunteer hours because they believe in the vision and the members.  And remember that this is a site for sick people.  After a short time, it is easy to know members and spot when they are having a really bad day. Reach out, send a pm, be helpful --- it will come back to you many fold

I have spent time with Karol and Sluff. We live on different coasts and the midwest, but we found time to sit down together.  I respect and love both of the administrators and would do anything for either.  The same for the moderators.   So read about who the are and how this disease has effected them before hurling any type of insult.   Everyone here has an important story.   Do some research and get to know members before blasting them.     Again my        Thanks to members that pm'd me regarding this.   

paris, Moderator

[jbeany]

Epoman's ball, Epoman's field, thus Epoman's rules.  Don't like it, take your bat and glove and go home!   

[Rerun]

The Admins....... God Bless'em.  I would not want their job.  AKA -- the other day when we were down they fought to get us back up and running.  Not something I'd want to spend my day and night doing.

This forum is not a free for all.  It was at first when Epoman started and that lasted about a week.  Then he regretably had to start a rules page and add to it. 

Epoman took no abuse from members as owner/Administrator.  You two (Sluff & Okarol) don't need to either.  Ban any of us who get in your face.  You do not deserve that. You are judge and jury.  Done deal.   

[kellyt]

Hi Paris

(said in my most dull Control Freaks Anonymous voice)

[Chris]

Suprisingly ( ) there is no responce by the two who complained so much. No surprise, we have seen it before, complain, make bad, comments, no appologies, and pretty much say leave the sight.
 
Takes a real person to apologize or make amends.

[RichardMEL]

I'm very sorry that I tried to feel a troll. I will stick to girls from now on - at least they only slap me!!!

[noahvale]

*