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Author Topic: NxStage in your RV? Power consumption?  (Read 4314 times)
Dannyboy
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« on: June 03, 2011, 02:05:32 PM »

I know I can get this answered at my center by physically looking at a machine, but the question is intriguing to me right now LOL.

If someone can read me the "watt rating" on the nameplate of their NxStage?

Why do I want this info?   I travel sometimes with my fifth wheel RV, and I want to see if my "quiet" inverter system (converts 12 volts DC battery power to "regular" 120 volts AC(regular here in the US anyway LOL)) system has enough capacity as is to handle hours and hours of the NxStage machine running, should I go to that modality.   Yeah, I could fire up my generator, but I can't always run the generator at night due to noise restrictions (especially when camping).   The inverter system runs off storage batteries and is completely quiet on the outside.

Ok, this is not something that is critical to know right now, just wondering if anybody knows.
---Dan
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ESRD Summer 2011
Started using NxStage September, 2011
"Everything is funny as long as it is happening to Somebody Else"--Will Rogers

Alcoa and Reynolds are in a bidding war to buy my serum Aluminum.
greg10
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 02:38:39 PM »

Welcome to the forum.  I think I answered this in another forum one time.  Basically you can power the NxStage cycler and Pureflow for about 45 minutes using the APC Smart UPS 1500 (pure sine wave UPS, 980 watts).  Even more if you are likely to use only the cycler in an RV.  I also have access to a non-sine wave inverter system normally found in an RV/truck system.  But after measuring the output, I decided not to try it due to the low RMS voltage.

Quote
Let me try to answer this as a newbie:
Thank you M3R. This looks like it is doable. I finally got my hands on some manuals, and this is what I read:
pp 8-2 NxStage System One (NSO) manual, 100-120V, 600VA (200 VA cycler, 400VA AC outlet)
pp 10-2 Pureflow User guide, 100-120V, 400VA
the bag warmer on the NxStage System One is separate from System One and looks like it is 5A. You will likely to be using the warmer on the Pureflow or the bag warmer, but not both at the same time, so the draw would be about 600VA or approximately 600W.

If you get the APC Smart UPS 1500 http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1500&total_watts=50
You may be able to power the NxStage System One with the bag warmer or the Pureflow at a draw of 600VA for about 18 minutes, may be a lot longer if you can shut off the warmer (it is also unlikely the warmer will be constantly drawing 400VA all of that 18 minutes). Certainly you should be able to start a manual generator in that time or hopefully the utility can restore the power in that time. I don't know enough about the NSO to know if you can trigger an early termination and return of blood by the emergent rinseback procedure.
pp 8-2 NxStage System One (NSO) manual, 100-120V, 600VA (200 VA cycler, 400VA AC outlet)
pp 10-2 Pureflow User guide, 100-120V, 400VA
Most of the power is actually used by Pureflow warmer in the standby mode.
Assuming your Pureflow is turned on 24hr x 6 days and that the warmer heating element comes on about 20% of the time (depending on room temperature), that is about 30 hours a week or 30 hr x 400 W = 12000 W-hr. In addition the NSO cycler comes on about 5 hr x 6 days x 200W = 6000 W-hr.
Approximately you will be using ~78 kW-hr additional power per month. At 10 cents per kW-hr, that would be about $8 in additional expense in electricity per month, which is about that of a 12 cu ft refrigerator.
Last edited by greg10; 09-13-2010 at 09:21 PM."

I know I can get this answered at my center by physically looking at a machine, but the question is intriguing to me right now LOL.

If someone can read me the "watt rating" on the nameplate of their NxStage?

Why do I want this info?   I travel sometimes with my fifth wheel RV, and I want to see if my "quiet" inverter system (converts 12 volts DC battery power to "regular" 120 volts AC(regular here in the US anyway LOL)) system has enough capacity as is to handle hours and hours of the NxStage machine running, should I go to that modality.   Yeah, I could fire up my generator, but I can't always run the generator at night due to noise restrictions (especially when camping).   The inverter system runs off storage batteries and is completely quiet on the outside.

Ok, this is not something that is critical to know right now, just wondering if anybody knows.
---Dan
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 02:41:34 PM by greg10 » Logged

Newbie caretaker, so I may not know what I am talking about :)
Caretaker for my elderly father who has his first and current graft in March, 2010.
Previously in-center hemodialysis in national chain, now doing NxStage home dialysis training.
End of September 2010: after twelve days of training, we were asked to start dialyzing on our own at home, reluctantly, we agreed.
If you are on HD, did you know that Rapid fluid removal (UF = ultrafiltration) during dialysis is associated with cardiovascular morbidity?  http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=20596
We follow a modified version: UF limit = (weight in kg)  *  10 ml/kg/hr * (130 - age)/100

How do you know you are getting sufficient hemodialysis?  Know your HDP!  Scribner, B. H. and D. G. Oreopoulos (2002). "The Hemodialysis Product (HDP): A Better Index of Dialysis Adequacy than Kt/V." Dialysis & Transplantation 31(1).   http://www.therenalnetwork.org/qi/resources/HDP.pdf
Dannyboy
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2011, 07:55:51 PM »

Greg,  Thanks for the welcome and thanks for the info.

You posted exactly what I was wondering about.   I can see that the power needs of the NxStage are very modest, all things considered.   

You make a good point about not using a square wave type inverter (meant only for AC/DC power tools, etc.) but one that has pretty much sine wave output, suitable for computers, etc.  Absolutely I wouldn't hook it up to anything else.

Also: I hadn't thought far enough along, but yeah, I see that I should have a UPS on it as you do, both at home and on the road--good point.

Well I know now that I can make it work in my RV now (if I go the HHD route), thanks!

:2thumbsup;
---Dan

« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 08:00:58 PM by Dannyboy » Logged

ESRD Summer 2011
Started using NxStage September, 2011
"Everything is funny as long as it is happening to Somebody Else"--Will Rogers

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greg10
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 10:42:21 AM »

Battery backup UPS and standby power is preferable in an RV, but having sufficient battery to last 2-3 hours may require a fairly large (read heavy) battery bank if the warmer is in use constantly, for example with cooler temperature.

Another way may be to use a generator backup with an RV, such as the Honeywell HW2000i which does have a sine wave output:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILI6lXEyYmg

I do have this generator, but I don't look forward to starting it and it is not something I would use unless my UPS is depleted.
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Newbie caretaker, so I may not know what I am talking about :)
Caretaker for my elderly father who has his first and current graft in March, 2010.
Previously in-center hemodialysis in national chain, now doing NxStage home dialysis training.
End of September 2010: after twelve days of training, we were asked to start dialyzing on our own at home, reluctantly, we agreed.
If you are on HD, did you know that Rapid fluid removal (UF = ultrafiltration) during dialysis is associated with cardiovascular morbidity?  http://ihatedialysis.com/forum/index.php?topic=20596
We follow a modified version: UF limit = (weight in kg)  *  10 ml/kg/hr * (130 - age)/100

How do you know you are getting sufficient hemodialysis?  Know your HDP!  Scribner, B. H. and D. G. Oreopoulos (2002). "The Hemodialysis Product (HDP): A Better Index of Dialysis Adequacy than Kt/V." Dialysis & Transplantation 31(1).   http://www.therenalnetwork.org/qi/resources/HDP.pdf
Dannyboy
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 11:11:25 AM »

Yep, my 3.5 KW 'generator' puts out really clean sine wave, but the issue I forsee (see my earlier post) is not being "allowed" to run the thing (sometimes) in the evening hours due to noise restrictions (example: most USFS campgrounds where I like to go).   

I have plenty of room to add additional batteries, as what I have now will not provide enough Amp hours for this service.   I'm using golf cart batteries 'cause they cope reasonably well with deep discharge/recharge cycles.

I see you have good taste in scopes :grin;.
---Dan
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ESRD Summer 2011
Started using NxStage September, 2011
"Everything is funny as long as it is happening to Somebody Else"--Will Rogers

Alcoa and Reynolds are in a bidding war to buy my serum Aluminum.
noahvale
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 04:00:20 PM »

@ DannyBoy - thought you would enjoy reading these articles by Georgia Harper, one of the earliest patients taking full advantage of RV dialysis.   Some of the issues he addresses might still apply today - even with the convenience of portable NxStage machines.

http://www.globaldialysis.com/your-stories/108340000-rv-dialysis-a-dream-realized-and-a-dream-threatened.html

http://www.cc.utah.edu/~cla6202/GeoH.htm
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 04:24:46 PM by noahvale » Logged

"Happiness isn't based on absence of conflict, but in one's ability to cope with it."

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03/2003 - Transplant Rejection
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Dannyboy
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 06:52:55 PM »

@noahvale.   WOW!   Thank You.   

As you might have noticed, I'm pre-dialysis and a genuine newbie in every sense of the word (but learning fast)....reading about Mr. Harper's experiences is darn near shocking.

As you point out, it's from a few years back, but none of the issues he faced occured to me (I find myself saying that a lot lately LOL).

Thanks a bunch for the links.

If I understand how the NxStage system is configured, when it's taken "on the road", the lower RO section stays behind, and the user takes the needed sterile "water" supply bags along (ordering them in advance)??   So the suitability of water for purifying would not be an issue I'm thinking.   But the issues of availability of higher level medical care, etc. seem like still remain.

I'm kind of laughing at myself right now 'cause I keep "assuming" stuff LOL.   I'm thinking the prudent thing to do will be to keep my Dialysis-in-my-RV ideas to myself until well after my medical team sees that I can do HHD just fine.   What I had in mind was maybe 3-4 times a year, and would not do so without the knowledge and support of my medical team.

--Dan

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ESRD Summer 2011
Started using NxStage September, 2011
"Everything is funny as long as it is happening to Somebody Else"--Will Rogers

Alcoa and Reynolds are in a bidding war to buy my serum Aluminum.
Zach
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 09:25:35 PM »

@ DannyBoy - thought you would enjoy reading these articles by Georgia Harper, one of the earliest patients taking full advantage of RV dialysis.   Some of the issues he addresses might still apply today - even with the convenience of portable NxStage machines.

http://www.globaldialysis.com/your-stories/108340000-rv-dialysis-a-dream-realized-and-a-dream-threatened.html

http://www.cc.utah.edu/~cla6202/GeoH.htm

How is old George?
A real patient advocate!

He received a transplant a few years ago I recall.

8)
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In-center uninterrupted hemodialysis since 1982--32 YEARS on March 3, 2014 !!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No transplant.  Not yet, anyway.  Only decided to be listed on 11/9/06    ;)
Work full time.  I make films.

Just the facts: 75 kgs. (about 165 lbs.)
Treatment: Tue-Thur-Sat   5 hours, 2x/wk, 6 hours, 1x/wk
600 dialysate flow (Qd)  ~400 blood pump (Qb)
Fresenius Optiflux-180 filter--without reuse
Fresenius 2008T dialysis machine
My KDOQI (+/ -):  2,625 Calories, 90 grams Protein per day.

"Living a life, not an apology."
noahvale
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2011, 07:52:56 AM »

How is old George?
A real patient advocate!

He received a transplant a few years ago I recall.

8)

Just got off the phone from talking with him.  Planning for his and his wife's next trip and needing to work on the RV.

Yes, he received a transplant in the early 2000s and it is doing well.  However, like all of us old-timers, he is having to deal with the long-term effects of renal replacement therapies. 
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"Happiness isn't based on absence of conflict, but in one's ability to cope with it."

03/1978 - Started In-Center Hemo
06/1990 - Cadaver Transplant - UAB
03/2003 - Transplant Rejection
06/2004 - In-Center Hemo
07/2005 - Relisted at UAB
04/2011 - In-Center Sun-Tues-Thurs Nights/Extended Hours
Dan.Larrabee
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2011, 09:11:29 PM »

Dannyboy

I have been using NxStage for 2+ years now and I am an RVer. I have done dialysis in my RV for months at a time. The one thing I donít do is use my PureFlow. NxStage will ship bags anywhere in the 48 states and you can ship them to an RV park as I have many times. This will help in your power consumption as you will not have to run your PureFlow.

The issues are that PureFlow makes it own dialysate out of tap water. The tap water needs to be tested by your clinic. You may fill your holding tanks with water from your home, but once itís out you will need to use other sources while you are one the road. I would not take that chance and thatís why I use bags when traveling.

I have used inverters on a single deep cycle battery for as long as 45 minutes at a time. I have yet to do a full treatment, short or extended, with batteries only. I simply make sure I do my treatments at a time I can run my 2000 watt generator.

Hope that add some perspective and happy camping.

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www.youtube.com/dialysisdan
Dannyboy
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2011, 08:00:37 AM »

Dan,
Thanks....that is reassuring.    I, too am usually "camped" with shore power, but once in a while are several days "self contained".    I'm not on dialysis (yet), but I'm just trying to think out the changes I will need to make in my life style, logistically you might say.

Hearing that you (and others) have successfully done  HD with NxStage "on the road" is really great to hear.   

Sounds like the NxStage unit handles a minor amount of shaking and bumps from traveling without injury??

Happy "RV'ng"

---Dan
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ESRD Summer 2011
Started using NxStage September, 2011
"Everything is funny as long as it is happening to Somebody Else"--Will Rogers

Alcoa and Reynolds are in a bidding war to buy my serum Aluminum.
Dan.Larrabee
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2011, 04:48:50 PM »

Alright DannyBoy you asked for it.  You said ďSounds like the NxStage unit handles a minor amount of shaking and bumps from traveling without injury??Ē it handles way more than a minor amount. I have taken it in my Jeep in the mountains and covered the travel case with more than an inch of mud. This link however will show one of the best trips I took and it got way more than a minor shake. Let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/dialysisdan#p/u/0/rZ1NYEg46uE

We ran on generator each night after rafting and the total trip was four days on the river.

For reference, I have been making videos on how to of the NxStage for reference. I make one each time I am asked how to do something. You can see all of my videos at

www.youtube.com/dialysisdan
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AKA Dialysis Dan
Feeling the best I can because of Home Hemo
Doing it the best way I can by making it Nocturnal
Sharing it to help everyone feel they best they can
www.youtube.com/dialysisdan
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This will be me...... Next spring.... I earned it.

« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2011, 06:05:58 PM »

Yea buddy ... soundsl like fun to me..... 
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IgA Nephropathy   April 2009
CKD    May 2009
AV Fistula  June 2009
In-Center Dialysis   Sept 2009
Nxstage    Feb 2010
Extended Nxstage March 2011

Transplant Sept 2, 2011

  Hello from the Oregon Coast.....

I am learning to live close to the lives of my friends without ever seeing them. No miles of any measurement can separate your soul from mine.
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Dannyboy
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 10:00:51 PM »

Dan (and Bill):
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yessiree, *THAT* answers my concerns about a little bumping to a NxStage unit on the road..LOL.     
You are my kind of adventurers/"envelope pusher-outers" [is that a word?], more than you could know.   Your rafting video is inspiring to say the least. 
Looking forward to checking out the other videos.
Thanks for sharing Dan (and Bill).
---Dan 
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ESRD Summer 2011
Started using NxStage September, 2011
"Everything is funny as long as it is happening to Somebody Else"--Will Rogers

Alcoa and Reynolds are in a bidding war to buy my serum Aluminum.
Dannyboy
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2011, 10:31:48 PM »

Dan,
I watched all of the videos just now, they are great.  Thanks for posting.
I intend to go with NxStage when i start D, so haven't actually utilized one yet, but the videos answer a number of things I was wondering about.
---Dan
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ESRD Summer 2011
Started using NxStage September, 2011
"Everything is funny as long as it is happening to Somebody Else"--Will Rogers

Alcoa and Reynolds are in a bidding war to buy my serum Aluminum.
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2013, 04:38:36 AM »

Hi,

I thought it might be helpful to add my experience to this topic for anyone, like me who comes across it looking to power their Nxstage from a battery source.

We have an RV and use it for spontaneous long weekends away as my business is very dynamic, very dependent on myself and therfore we cannot plan holidays easily.  We need to be able to pick up the Cycler, put it in the RV and go.

I have installed a 230Ah Calcium battery to power the dialysis session without eating the normal Aux battery.
This is charged through a 15V 20A power supply which I have secured under the RV in a vented splashproof enclosure (it was too warm and fan was too noisy for inside the vehicle).

The first problem, the power up surge was too great when the power was first connected, as both the Aux battery charger and the 15V charger both started up.  I therefore created a small circuit, operating from the mains being present, that delayed a couple of seconds before enabling a relay, which in turn enables power to the Calcium charger.

Next I needed about 1KW of power for the cycler and the bag heater, so I purchased a 2KW (running) 6KW peak invertor and secured this under the RV too.  I extended the power switch for the invertor into the RV and am currently creating a circuit to show me the status of the battery and an alarm if it drops below 11V. 

In an emergency (running out of power during dialysis), I need to get power to the invertor and didn't want to add chunky power switches/relays etc at this stage.  I have therefore installed two large contacts under the RV attached to the Calcium battery.  These allow jump leads (which I always carry) to be connected to the engine battery, allowing the invertor to operate from the engine alternator if more battery is required.

TESTING
In practice, the worst case we have found is that the 230Ah Calcium battery gets depleted by about 80% by one 3 hour dialysis session, although I am not convinced that the battery was fully charged.  We've only run this a few times, so I am building up an average and will post here when I have better figures. 

Other stuff I have done to support this project:
  • I added removable light weight hooks and arms in a corner to support the fluid bags.
  • I have re-enforced a bunk with steel angle so that the cycler can rest on this and be strapped down whilst driving.
  • I've added CAPD drain out bags under a bunk, with a couple of valves, allowing waste to be collected here.  These are collapsable, so the space when empty can be used for fluid bags too.  The bags can be easily replaced and the valves allow the bags to be drained from outside the vehicle.
  • I fitted a ring on the floor and have a strap under the bunk, which secures the cycler for travelling.
Future plans:
I am working on improving efficiency.  The RV and fluid was cold during all sessions so far.  Perhaps heating the bags first in the wardrobe (over the heater) would mean less power used by the heater plate.  Plus there are other power savings I could make here and there (eg: pre-warm the fluid before it gets to the heater plate by passing it round a gas powered warmer, etc).
I am aiming for two or three sessions from one battery charge.   

Another planned item in my project will be to have a switch/relay to allow the engine battery/alternator to directly power the invertor.

Also, charging the battery from the alternator.  I don't believe that it would be possible to fully charge the Calcium battery from the alternator as a normal lead-acid battery charges at around 14V and a Calcuim battery requires 15.5V for a decent charge.  So the alternator could only be used to trickle charge the battery, which would never reach full capacity.  A voltage booster will therefore need to be installed to do this.


The wife doesn't know it yet, but my next project is mounting my 1980 Triumph T140ES Bonneville on the RV tow bar :-).

Jonathan
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us and fam easter 2013

« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2013, 07:53:09 PM »

oh my goodness JOnD!!  you are amazing!!  I think this is incredibly wonderful what you've done and your wife is tremendously lucky to have such an ingenious husband!!!!  How i would love to just jump in and GO!!  heck, we havent gone at all due to the gathering of supplies for a 3 day trip, we just figure D around it.  I think your great and appreciate your showing us IT CAN BE DONE!!  Wonderful job!!
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He started dialysis April 09
We thank God for every day we are blessed to have together.
november 2010, patiently (ha!) waiting our turn for NxStage training
January 14,2011 home with NxStage
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