GOP Presidential Debate

[Hemodoc]

Dear Cariad,

IHD appears to be a bastion for lambasting conservatives. So be it, I accept that. However, it is a point of fact that I strongly disagree with Obama based on his policies which I believe are destructive to this country and will only increase the power of the Federal government which is becoming more and more dictatorial all the time. How can a sitting president completely ignore Federal judge rulings such as with the moratorium on oil and just thumb his nose at them for instance? We are becoming a land of lawlessness starting right in the Oval office itself.

Bush likewise enacted the Patriot Act and other legislation that completely abrogates constitutional protections. It ain't just the democrats that I oppose.

I would further correct your poor short term memory. If you recall, McCain was born in Panama and many questioned his eligibility to be president. I suppose that is racial too Cariad!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

As far as the birther issue, have you forgotton that his own grandmother in Kenya states he was born there before her? This is a man who was not raised in the US for most of his early life and I strongly suspect that he has any love for this nation at all. Remember his apology tour throughout the world. In addition, they still have NOT released ANY of his school records nor college records nor explained how he went to Pakistan as an alleged US citizen when that was illegal. Even with the alleged birth certificate, there are many, many unanswered questions and suppressed documents that every other president made available without question.

Looking at the alleged birth certificate itself, all you need to do is to zoom in on the document and can see definite discrepencies. If you wish to believe that is a real copy of an ORIGINAL document so be it. In addition, it is NOT a political issue at all at this point in time. Obama has WON that gamesmanship which is quite questionable in the first place. After all, it was Donald Trump who played this card. My goodness, what kind of respectability and credibility does that man possess? Not much in my opinion.

Lastly, folks are really failing to recognize that the GOP and the DEMs are really just two segments of the same team both of whom are usurping more and more power from the people. Most folks have no clue that the Federal Reserve Bank has NOTHING to do with the Federal government except to tell the Feds what to do. I suspect most folks have failed to understand the outright bribery that members of congress are submitted to. Most recognize that congress is corrupt, but fail to take this into account when considering their politics.

I believe spouting the Democratic propaganda of the day is frankly ignorant, just as is spouting the GOP propaganda. We all laugh at the Russians and the outright propaganda that they believed as a people and as a nation, yet today we fail to even question the news media biased reporting. Remember Charles Schumers on mike conversation of the key words to stress about the GOP? Shucks folks, are we all really a bunch of lemmings that will come together in ferocious defense of any of these bozos that are manipulating the masses through vain political discourse so that you folks really believe that anyone that opposes Obama is a racist? If that is true, then this nation deserves the loss of all freedoms in the guise of national security, in the guise of "equality," in the guise of stamping out racism.

So go and protest the 1 percenters, go and protest against all these things and this nation shall fall into discord, confusion, inability to resolve even minor differences. If you feel I am a racist, so be it, not much I can do to change anyone's mind about anything. But it is sad to see this nation become one of sqaubling and bickering led by those that poison the airwaves with floods of propaganda that people ignorantly except as fact. If that is the level of political discourse in this nation, then we are simply doomed to be ruled by tryannical dictators and in addition we will deserve that outcome.

[MooseMom]

Hemodoc, I am not entirely sure what "issues" there still are with the birth certificate, but as you've pointed out, it's not an issue politically any longer...at least for most people.  However, the original poster, in outlining what she disliked about the President, didn't explain policy positions, rather, she dragged out this particular dead horse and continued to beat it.  I'd be interested to know why.

I wouldn't dream of thinking you are racist just because you disagree with the President's politics.  In fact, I absolutely WELCOME any discussion about specific policies and why the opposition dislikes them.  Furthermore, I'd like to know what conservatives would do instead.  I am very open to other people's ideas.  What I am NOT open to is political discussion that employs such canards as "The President hates America", "the President doesn't believe in America", "the President is a secret Muslim" and "the President wants America to fail."  Why would anyone who hates this country choose to serve it for four years?  AND drag his family through it all?  Perhaps, though, no one loves his country as much as Newt as his passion for the USA drove him to infidelity.

As you have a brown skinned wife, I would think that you of all people would be particularly sensitive by this pervasive belief BY SOME PEOPLE that those who are not WASP are not "real Americans."  I greatly resent the notion that any one of us gets to define "real America."

I still am struggling to get a grip on what the conservative electorate is looking for.  I know they want to beat President Obama primarily, but I am becoming confused about certain policies.  When Mr. Gingrich was on the Space Coast in FL yesterday, he announced that by the end of his second term, there would be an American permanent base on the moon.  Now, I think that idea is rather cool, but the whole reason the shuttle program was shut down and not replaced was because of budget constraints (in this age of bloated federal spending, this is understandable); it is thought that the American rockets and boosters of the future would be developed by private entrepreneurs...I thought this was pretty much the current conservative thinking.  So why is Mr Gingrich going on about how his administration would be putting a permanent station on the moon?  Do you at least see where this would confuse me? 

Mr. Romney is complaining about the budget cuts in the military and how they would make us weak, again because Mr. Obama hates America.  It was actually just before 9/11 that the Bush administration began planning for a "leaner, meaner" military, but then when 9/11 happened, we instead grew our military to enormous proportions and at enormous cost.  The President and his current military advisers are returning to the idea of reducing the size of the military but enhancing the role of special operations forces.  A military that is overweight and bloated cannot respond quickly and flexibly to the smaller and more virulent pockets of violence.  It is a matter of spending our money more wisely.  So why would a conservative like Mr. Romney want to spend more money in the "old way"?

These are two very specific policy points that illustrate why I am unsure about these two candidates.  I know that people will say just about anything to get elected, and maybe whoever the GOP nominee will be will present a more precise idea of how they want to lead the country in the right direction.  I am very willing and even more eager to listen to what everyone in the race has to say, but please do not couch it in terms of "I am a real American, but he is not."

I cannot define the role that race plays in the way that some people view the President's agenda.  I don't really think that just because one may oppose his healthcare plan makes them racist.  I don't think "conservative" is a synonym for "racist".  But just because I can't precisely define it doesn't mean that I can fairly deny that it exists.

I am ashamed to admit this, but several years ago when my mom was visiting me, just before the 2008 election, we were chatting and she suddenly said that she believed that if Obama was elected President, he'd flood his cabinet with Kenyans.  I kid you not.  I nearly fell out of my chair, but I thought, "Well, I love my mom, but she IS 80 years old and she isn't well, so I won't judge."  I asked her why she thought that and who did she think he was going to choose to serve with him, and she suddenly looked confused and said she didn't know.  My mother grew up in rural Mississippi, and maybe some of the old thinking was surfacing in her old age.  But I was truly shocked beyond words.  My mother was the nicest person that God ever created, and I'm not the only one who has said that about my mom.  We hear stories about addled old people who say the most offensive things at the dinner table, but I did not see my mom as "addled", so I have no idea what was going on.  But it made me realize that if SHE could be racist, then perhaps this is a sentiment that flows more deeply than we like to admit in this country.

[MooseMom]

I agree with you absolutely, Hemodoc, about the corruption in Congress and the low level of political discourse in this country.  Nancy Pelosi and many of her fellow congresspeople have made money off of the very same practices that landed Martha Stewart in jail.  In his SOTU, the President proposed closing that particular loophole; I wonder how congress will vote on THAT!   I think I can guess.

I agree that we do seem to be gradually losing our freedoms, but WE are the ultimate enablers.  If we allow ourselves to be duped by the media mouthpieces of both sides, then we only have ourselves to blame when things go pear shaped. 

BTW, and back to the book "American Nations" I'm reading, this bickering and general chaos has been with this country since before the War of Independence.  I've learned that there were at least 3 major secessionist movements before the Civil War that very nearly came to fruition.  I've learned that one of our esteemed Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, was eager to purchase the Lousiana territories so that slave states could push further westward.  Our past is not hallowed, and strong protest is the American Way.

[Hemodoc]

As far as the military, I guess you haven't spent much time learning about the China military buildup with a million man army and now they are challenging us in the Naval arms as well which is our most important military projection of power. This is a very unstable and dangerous world. Anyone that has spent anytime studying world history should understand the importance of military power to keep freedom and liberty.

I do not ascribe to all of our military interventions, but that is another topic. War mongering is not a GOP issue, look at the wars in the last 100 years to see all of the democratic wars. I spent 9 years in the US Army and know the people personally who fought these wars and suffered the immediate and lasting consequences. Unfortunately, a strong military is a necesarry evil to maintain freedom. Simply a fact of history. Consider Iran, North Korea, together with China, Russia and so many other nations all building up nuclear arms as well as conventional arms and we see another disaster coming forth should we put our heads in the sand. Sorry, that is just ignoring the sad facts of history which supercedes GOP or DEM policies. We ignore the lessons of history at our own peril.

Once again, if you wish to believe the propaganda about racism so be it. My brown skinned wife is perfectly comfortable up in Idaho which is about 95% WASP as you state and in fact prefers that to the overt racism brought on by those of brown skin here in CA. If you think that is an outragious statement, come and live in the middle of gang infested CA where we have brown skinned southern mexican gangs that will shoot on sight brown skinned northern mexicans because someone stole a pair of sneakers decades ago. A clearly ignorant action years ago has led to continued ignorant killings based on false racial disparities.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/220107mexicangangs.htm

And of course our brown skinned black gangs.

http://www.streetgangs.com/topics/2007/012107raceharbor.html

And of course, our white skinned, hairless gangs as well.

http://www.adl.org/racist_skinheads/skinhead_groups.asp

So, yes, let's talk about racism and why my brown skinned wife feels safe with all of the WASPS up in Idaho and is fearful here in the land of CA where we have so much alleged racial concord. Falling into the false propaganda that people like me are racist is in my opinion ignorant. I preached in a maximum security prison for nearly 8 years and that entire environment is driven by racial divide. Most people do not realize how much of an influence these prison gangs have in the outside society today. Yes, racism exists and is evil and divisive and can be used by media propaganda to evoke an emotional response. Shucks if you folks feel I am a racist becaus I oppose the policies of Obama, then by golly, I must be a racist. After all, isn't that what MSNBC and Keith Olberman say. Is that really were we are at in this country folks?

Lastly, who says those of us with conservative tendencies are the least bit happy with Mitt or Newt? Why is it that the strongest and best potential candidates are not even running for election and we are stuck with the choice of a big business insider vs a big government insider both with baggage? And why would anyone want to subject their entire life to the barage of the liberal medial that spews mockery and disparaging remarks against cabable individuals to destroy them before they are even presented before the public. Has anyone once seen any comedian do an impersonation of Obama since he was elected? Remember Frank Caliendo? I have yet to hear any renownded comedian immitate Obama even one time. What is going on with that? Is that reverse racism?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJchbYStUNY

How about the 5th grader kicked out of his school for simply saying a local newscaster picking up his kids looked like Obama. Racism, yes, yes, yes racism all right.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/was-a-5th-grader-kicked-out-of-his-elementary-school-for-saying-a-local-newscaster-resembles-barack-obama/

So, all of you please just call Peter Laird, MD a racist because I oppose Obama and believe he is hurtful to this nation. Is that rationale folks?  Give me a break.

[Hemodoc]

I agree with you absolutely, Hemodoc, about the corruption in Congress and the low level of political discourse in this country.  Nancy Pelosi and many of her fellow congresspeople have made money off of the very same practices that landed Martha Stewart in jail.  In his SOTU, the President proposed closing that particular loophole; I wonder how congress will vote on THAT!   I think I can guess.

I agree that we do seem to be gradually losing our freedoms, but WE are the ultimate enablers.  If we allow ourselves to be duped by the media mouthpieces of both sides, then we only have ourselves to blame when things go pear shaped. 

BTW, and back to the book "American Nations" I'm reading, this bickering and general chaos has been with this country since before the War of Independence.  I've learned that there were at least 3 major secessionist movements before the Civil War that very nearly came to fruition.  I've learned that one of our esteemed Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, was eager to purchase the Lousiana territories so that slave states could push further westward.  Our past is not hallowed, and strong protest is the American Way.

Strong protest is the American way so to speak, but never before has the American people been so dumbed down with high illiteracy rates and profound propaganda controlled by people who choose to manipulate and move the masses where they want them to go. Why should we line up behind George Soros and his billions to protest the 1 percenters? Look at who is pulling the strings and you will find you are sick of all of them, left or right. What hypocrisy, what do you thing Obama is? One of the alleged 99% or is he not indeed one with and of the 1%. Why then has wall street poured millions and millions of dollars in his campagn chest?

Yes, protest in some instances is the right thing to do, but protests based on propaganda are plain and simply ignorant.

[cariad]

Shucks if you folks feel I am a racist becaus I oppose the policies of Obama, then by golly, I must be a racist.

So, all of you please just call Peter Laird, MD a racist because I oppose Obama and believe he is hurtful to this nation.

Peter, I have an appointment in a few minutes so need to keep this brief: What part of no one is saying nor believes for one moment that you are a racist was unclear to you? Yes, I am sure there are liberals who would paint you what that brush, but I don't see them writing here. Why are you so determined to find a personal attack in this discussion?

[Hemodoc]

Shucks if you folks feel I am a racist becaus I oppose the policies of Obama, then by golly, I must be a racist.

So, all of you please just call Peter Laird, MD a racist because I oppose Obama and believe he is hurtful to this nation.

Peter, I have an appointment in a few minutes so need to keep this brief: What part of no one is saying nor believes for one moment that you are a racist was unclear to you? Yes, I am sure there are liberals who would paint you what that brush, but I don't see them writing here. Why are you so determined to find a personal attack in this discussion?

To simply point out how inflammatory that type of thinking is as expressed earlier and on other threads and is actually propaganda from the news media.  Shouldn't we be rising above the propaganda of this campaign on both sides? No, I am not a racist but I am lumped into that accusation when people begin ascribing racist motivation for opposing Obama. Hmmm, why is it that Herman Cain was so popular in the GOP before he imploded upon himself with alleged moral shortcomings? Paradoxically, some believe that the support of Cain came from racism as well. Go figure.

Just remember we have serious propaganda issues here in the US. When you have Charles Schumer telling everyone the talking points to emphasize on mike by accident and then hear those same talking points repeated over and over again, what does that tell you?

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/on-a-senate-call-a-glimpse-of-marching-orders/

[Bill Peckham]

Strong protest is the American way so to speak, but never before has the American people been so dumbed down with high illiteracy rates and profound propaganda controlled by people who choose to manipulate and move the masses where they want them to go. Why should we line up behind George Soros and his billions to protest the 1 percenters? Look at who is pulling the strings and you will find you are sick of all of them, left or right. What hypocrisy, what do you thing Obama is? One of the alleged 99% or is he not indeed one with and of the 1%. Why then has wall street poured millions and millions of dollars in his campagn chest?

Yes, protest in some instances is the right thing to do, but protests based on propaganda are plain and simply ignorant.

Just on this one point I'd like to know what American People you are referring to because illiteracy has historically been much higher http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp#overview

Not to say that current illiteracy rates are completely accurate (I was a VISTA in the '80s, working on adult literacy) but I would say that historic literacy rates are understating the problem in the same way today's numbers do, so for comparison purposes they are apples to apples.

Looking a little deeper, at say knowledge of American history among teenagers, it has always, ALWAYS, been true that knowledge of our own history has been spotty.

I have to say Facebook has been an eye opener as has discussion boards like IHD. CKD is an equal opportunity disease, striking those on the right and the left equally. As a result I've gotten to 'know' a cross section of Americans, more so than I would have if my acquaintances had been limited to my neighbors in the blue heart of a blue state. As a result in order to explain why people disagree with my political views I can't say they are stupid or brainwashed or evil. I already know they are kind, funny, thoughtful and then I have to make sense of their political views in that context.

Peter you are the poster boy for this, I know you from your blogging and advocacy. From your interactions online and our interactions in meatspace. I also know your political views are 180 degrees from my own but those views don't trump my understanding of who you are, it just makes you more interesting. And in fact knowing you makes conservatives generally more interesting.

There is a lot I don't understand about the minds of the President's opponents, I question their goals, their strategy, and their tactics. I don't question the heart or intelligence of individuals but as a group they are failing badly, with success defined as achieving their political goals. That failure is interesting but perhaps those in the movement are too close to see it happening. At some point the right will find their David Cameron but I don't see that person coming forward until the whole Gingrich/Bush republican edifice blows itself apart.



Edited to add: for Obama impersonations try this.

[MooseMom]

Here is a little bit of good political news!  It seems that there is a senate bill co-authored by Kirsten Gillibrand (D) and Scott Brown (R) that would ban the trading of corporate stocks by members of Congress based upon non-public political information.  Notice that it is written by a democrat with a republican.  President Obama said that he'd sign such a bill immediately.  I think this is rather encouraging.

To be fair, I am not sure that the race in either party for the eventual nominee is ever the best place to find specific policy positions.  I realize that the candidates are speaking to their bases, and they are saying what they perceive they want to hear.  That's the nature of our politics.  I am eager for the GOP to make their selection so that we can see him and the President debate specifics.

[cariad]

I would further correct your poor short term memory. If you recall, McCain was born in Panama and many questioned his eligibility to be president. I suppose that is racial too Cariad!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

What a combative and snide reply, Hemodoc. All of it, but I especially take umbrage with your attack on my memory. Would you please keep in mind that you are on a SUPPORT site for serious medical issues? One of those issues which I have been trying to find time to post about is a certain cognitive loss that I have been suffering from, NOT memory problems, but an issue of great concern to me that has only appeared since I underwent chemo, radiation, apheresis, and a dual stem cell and kidney transplant. Guess I'll be keeping those concerns to myself lest they be used to attack my opinions on future subjects. I really don't need any individual, not to mention someone who uses the label 'doctor', to mock my physical nor mental condition. It is out of line and painfully unfunny. By the way, the article you posted was from early 2008. Your use of the medical term 'short-term memory' is completely wrong. Short-term memory, as any one with a day of psychological training will tell you, is the memory that we form that lasts approximately 30 seconds and is then discarded. Long term memory functions and is stored in a totally separate fashion, but that is the term that you should have used in this instance. It can hardly be a failing of my short or long term memory because I never read that article you linked and heard nothing questioning McCain's legitimacy as a candidate. However, I asked for evidence that conservatives questioned this and you linked a New York Times article, which is not known for its republican leanings. I don't have time to read your massive posts plus links so I only skimmed the article and saw Republicans defending him. I believe he was born on the military base. Of course, I have yet to hear a current Republican candidate say in plain English "I believe Obama was born in America". That drivel you posted about the birth certificate being somehow false will not be dignified with a response.

I can assure you that there are people out there who refuse to put this issue to rest. If congressional Republicans would just say "No, let's stop being silly, he is as American as I am" it would be over. Yet they don't, they prefer the cutesy semantics games. McCain did say something to that effect, in my recollection, so good on him. (though perhaps that's just my poor memory talking) I believe that the birther movement was initiated in part because of racism. That says nothing about you, really nothing about your wife, and I have as much right as anyone else to put my views forward. I truly do not know how your wife's feelings about the world could possibly matter to this discussion. Where she feels comfortable is where she feels comfortable, and she does not represent all minorities, so that really does not tell us much. There is no such thing as 'reverse racism'. Racism is racism is racism, whether you are black, white, Asian, whatever. Racism is a tremendous problem in this country and I will not let you nor anyone else tell me that we cannot talk about it. You are under no obligation to participate in the discussion if you find it such a waste of time.

Remember Charles Schumers on mike conversation of the key words to stress about the GOP? Shucks folks, are we all really a bunch of lemmings that will come together in ferocious defense of any of these bozos that are manipulating the masses through vain political discourse so that you folks really believe that anyone that opposes Obama is a racist? If that is true, then this nation deserves the loss of all freedoms in the guise of national security, in the guise of "equality," in the guise of stamping out racism.

So go and protest the 1 percenters, go and protest against all these things and this nation shall fall into discord, confusion, inability to resolve even minor differences. If you feel I am a racist, so be it, not much I can do to change anyone's mind about anything. But it is sad to see this nation become one of sqaubling and bickering led by those that poison the airwaves with floods of propaganda that people ignorantly except as fact. If that is the level of political discourse in this nation, then we are simply doomed to be ruled by tryannical dictators and in addition we will deserve that outcome.

I never said that anyone who opposes Obama is a racist. Where are you getting these ridiculous ideas? How dare you misrepresent my beliefs like that. It is really insulting that you think those of us who find the birther idiocy racist are so simplistic. You once again are either not reading what I've written or are not comprehending it. Show me where I have ever suggested you are a racist. If you cannot, then JUST STOP with the ludicrous claims of persecution.

I don't spout propaganda. Believe it or not, you are not the only individual here who can think for themselves. I read what I have both the time and desire to read and form my own opinions. My opinions happen to coincide with Obama's on a fairly regular basis, but not always. I have criticized him on this very forum. The only time I have written to the White House was to criticize him. The problem with the Republicans is that they will never criticize one of their own, they are like some destructive cult that demands mindless devotion to a leader. (Grover Norquist and his idiotic tax pledge, anyone?) Democrats are not like that, at least not the ones I know, but if the GOP continues on their ridiculously self-righteous path of perpetually crying persecution, it will only serve to force the Dems to become just as rigid in their politics or risk giving away too much while the Republicans refuse to admit ANY wrong doing. Whenever I criticize Obama honestly, I feel remorse, not because I don't sincerely believe that he was wrong, but because I will then see some rabid Republican strenuously contorting themselves to defend something hideous within their party. You linked an article about a Dem giving 'marching orders' to his colleagues. Yeah, I think it would take me all of 10 seconds to find numerous and quite disturbing examples of Republicans sending out 'instructions' on how to manipulate the media, but yet you chose to zero in on a Democrat example. What does that tell me indeed.

I have no problem rising above propaganda. I have no doubt that you and I have very different ideas of what does and does not constitute propaganda, so spare me the attempts to try to dismiss my opinions as parroting some non-existent party line while you somehow spout a purer and more valid set of beliefs.

[YLGuy]

I really question Hemodoc's responses.  It truly appears that he is on this board as a troll sometimes.  I found the responses equally as ridiculous and I believe an apology is in order. He should be ashamed.  If you truly are a doctor your response is even more disturbing.

[MooseMom]

Hemodoc IS a doctor and has a very informative and advocative (is that a word? ) blog for dialysis/renal patients.  Just today he posted about his self-cannulation technique and his own infection control protocols based on his own substantial medical knowledge.  While we might not see eye to eye on every political issue, Hemodoc is a fervent dialysis patient advocate and has written many articles showing the same.  Just sayin'!

[YLGuy]

Then his response and personal attack IS even more disturbing. 

[Hemodoc]

Strong protest is the American way so to speak, but never before has the American people been so dumbed down with high illiteracy rates and profound propaganda controlled by people who choose to manipulate and move the masses where they want them to go. Why should we line up behind George Soros and his billions to protest the 1 percenters? Look at who is pulling the strings and you will find you are sick of all of them, left or right. What hypocrisy, what do you thing Obama is? One of the alleged 99% or is he not indeed one with and of the 1%. Why then has wall street poured millions and millions of dollars in his campagn chest?

Yes, protest in some instances is the right thing to do, but protests based on propaganda are plain and simply ignorant.

Just on this one point I'd like to know what American People you are referring to because illiteracy has historically been much higher http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp#overview

Not to say that current illiteracy rates are completely accurate (I was a VISTA in the '80s, working on adult literacy) but I would say that historic literacy rates are understating the problem in the same way today's numbers do, so for comparison purposes they are apples to apples.

Looking a little deeper, at say knowledge of American history among teenagers, it has always, ALWAYS, been true that knowledge of our own history has been spotty.

I have to say Facebook has been an eye opener as has discussion boards like IHD. CKD is an equal opportunity disease, striking those on the right and the left equally. As a result I've gotten to 'know' a cross section of Americans, more so than I would have if my acquaintances had been limited to my neighbors in the blue heart of a blue state. As a result in order to explain why people disagree with my political views I can't say they are stupid or brainwashed or evil. I already know they are kind, funny, thoughtful and then I have to make sense of their political views in that context.

Peter you are the poster boy for this, I know you from your blogging and advocacy. From your interactions online and our interactions in meatspace. I also know your political views are 180 degrees from my own but those views don't trump my understanding of who you are, it just makes you more interesting. And in fact knowing you makes conservatives generally more interesting.

There is a lot I don't understand about the minds of the President's opponents, I question their goals, their strategy, and their tactics. I don't question the heart or intelligence of individuals but as a group they are failing badly, with success defined as achieving their political goals. That failure is interesting but perhaps those in the movement are too close to see it happening. At some point the right will find their David Cameron but I don't see that person coming forward until the whole Gingrich/Bush republican edifice blows itself apart.

Edited to add: for Obama impersonations try this.

Bill, as always, we have been dialysis's odd couple in many ways,  :Kit n Stik;not the least of which that with our different backgrounds and philosophy, we were in agreement nearly 100% of the time. There were days past where the Buckley's could debate openly and profoundly with Tip Oneal in a civil discourse with complete disagreement, yet remain committed to a common good for America and remain friends.

Now, it is all about inflammatory, propaganda driven rhetoric that does nothing but to inflame and divide. Without civil discourse, this union will not last. The issue of the GOP alleged racism is just one such inflammatory rhetoric not grounded at all in fact. Sure, you can find some creeps in the GOP who are blatant racists, just like I can do the same with the DEMS. Ignorant people are ignorant is all you can conclude.

I don't see a bright future for America any longer not the least of which is inability to even debate in a civil manner any longer. God put upon each man to bear his own burdens and in such a manner, but able to also share others burdens. Both are supported in the Scripture. Sorry, but I just don't look to the Feds to solve all of my problems, but I also don't want them standing in the way of me finding those solutions as well.  For instance, since Obamacare passed, more people have no coverage and costs for insurance have risen dramatically. How did that happen?

I know of no historical account of nations that have prospered by accumulating massive debt and sending all of their jobs over seas. This ain't a GOP thing as falsely accused all the time. The person in charge of promoting American jobs is the CEO of GE who paid no income taxes last year and who have sent thousands of jobs over seas during the Obama administration. Corruption is corruption whether it is blue or red corruption, it is still corruption.

If we could ever dialogue the actual issues, I suspect without the media generated inflammatory rhetoric, we would find most of our goals and aims surprisingly in alignment. It is tactics and strategies that we differ on. From a historical perspective, deficit spending and Kenysian economics is a failure. You simply can't spend your way out of debt. If you wish an answer Moosemom, that is truly where the "conservative" comes from. Working hard, paying their bills, their taxes and providing through their own sweat and blood. There is satisfaction in providing for your family. Are we teaching that to our children any longer?

It is funny that we have to look to places like Puerto Rico to see how easy it is to be fiscally responsible and provide opportunity for the people of the land. Being a fiscal conservative is always unpopular at the start, but when the fruits of debt reduction are realized, then prosperity is the outcome for all involved.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/neil-reynolds/how-puerto-rico-stepped-back-from-an-economic-abyss/article2269657/?service=mobile

I suspect that we won't get anyone to do anything substantive until we have already gone across the cliff and it is too late, whether wearing red or blue. The America public demonstrates that they simply don't want austerity measures even if that would lead to a promising future. Oh well, the land of opportunity I grew up in will no longer be that for my grandchildren. Just the way it is since we can't even hold a rational conversation any longer in this nation. Just the way it is.

[Hemodoc]

I would further correct your poor short term memory. If you recall, McCain was born in Panama and many questioned his eligibility to be president. I suppose that is racial too Cariad!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

What a combative and snide reply, Hemodoc. All of it, but I especially take umbrage with your attack on my memory. Would you please keep in mind that you are on a SUPPORT site for serious medical issues? One of those issues which I have been trying to find time to post about is a certain cognitive loss that I have been suffering from, NOT memory problems, but an issue of great concern to me that has only appeared since I underwent chemo, radiation, apheresis, and a dual stem cell and kidney transplant. Guess I'll be keeping those concerns to myself lest they be used to attack my opinions on future subjects. I really don't need any individual, not to mention someone who uses the label 'doctor', to mock my physical nor mental condition. It is out of line and painfully unfunny. By the way, the article you posted was from early 2008. Your use of the medical term 'short-term memory' is completely wrong. Short-term memory, as any one with a day of psychological training will tell you, is the memory that we form that lasts approximately 30 seconds and is then discarded. Long term memory functions and is stored in a totally separate fashion, but that is the term that you should have used in this instance. It can hardly be a failing of my short or long term memory because I never read that article you linked and heard nothing questioning McCain's legitimacy as a candidate. However, I asked for evidence that conservatives questioned this and you linked a New York Times article, which is not known for its republican leanings. I don't have time to read your massive posts plus links so I only skimmed the article and saw Republicans defending him. I believe he was born on the military base. Of course, I have yet to hear a current Republican candidate say in plain English "I believe Obama was born in America". That drivel you posted about the birth certificate being somehow false will not be dignified with a response.

I can assure you that there are people out there who refuse to put this issue to rest. If congressional Republicans would just say "No, let's stop being silly, he is as American as I am" it would be over. Yet they don't, they prefer the cutesy semantics games. McCain did say something to that effect, in my recollection, so good on him. (though perhaps that's just my poor memory talking) I believe that the birther movement was initiated in part because of racism. That says nothing about you, really nothing about your wife, and I have as much right as anyone else to put my views forward. I truly do not know how your wife's feelings about the world could possibly matter to this discussion. Where she feels comfortable is where she feels comfortable, and she does not represent all minorities, so that really does not tell us much. There is no such thing as 'reverse racism'. Racism is racism is racism, whether you are black, white, Asian, whatever. Racism is a tremendous problem in this country and I will not let you nor anyone else tell me that we cannot talk about it. You are under no obligation to participate in the discussion if you find it such a waste of time.

Remember Charles Schumers on mike conversation of the key words to stress about the GOP? Shucks folks, are we all really a bunch of lemmings that will come together in ferocious defense of any of these bozos that are manipulating the masses through vain political discourse so that you folks really believe that anyone that opposes Obama is a racist? If that is true, then this nation deserves the loss of all freedoms in the guise of national security, in the guise of "equality," in the guise of stamping out racism.

So go and protest the 1 percenters, go and protest against all these things and this nation shall fall into discord, confusion, inability to resolve even minor differences. If you feel I am a racist, so be it, not much I can do to change anyone's mind about anything. But it is sad to see this nation become one of sqaubling and bickering led by those that poison the airwaves with floods of propaganda that people ignorantly except as fact. If that is the level of political discourse in this nation, then we are simply doomed to be ruled by tryannical dictators and in addition we will deserve that outcome.

I never said that anyone who opposes Obama is a racist. Where are you getting these ridiculous ideas? How dare you misrepresent my beliefs like that. It is really insulting that you think those of us who find the birther idiocy racist are so simplistic. You once again are either not reading what I've written or are not comprehending it. Show me where I have ever suggested you are a racist. If you cannot, then JUST STOP with the ludicrous claims of persecution.

I don't spout propaganda. Believe it or not, you are not the only individual here who can think for themselves. I read what I have both the time and desire to read and form my own opinions. My opinions happen to coincide with Obama's on a fairly regular basis, but not always. I have criticized him on this very forum. The only time I have written to the White House was to criticize him. The problem with the Republicans is that they will never criticize one of their own, they are like some destructive cult that demands mindless devotion to a leader. (Grover Norquist and his idiotic tax pledge, anyone?) Democrats are not like that, at least not the ones I know, but if the GOP continues on their ridiculously self-righteous path of perpetually crying persecution, it will only serve to force the Dems to become just as rigid in their politics or risk giving away too much while the Republicans refuse to admit ANY wrong doing. Whenever I criticize Obama honestly, I feel remorse, not because I don't sincerely believe that he was wrong, but because I will then see some rabid Republican strenuously contorting themselves to defend something hideous within their party. You linked an article about a Dem giving 'marching orders' to his colleagues. Yeah, I think it would take me all of 10 seconds to find numerous and quite disturbing examples of Republicans sending out 'instructions' on how to manipulate the media, but yet you chose to zero in on a Democrat example. What does that tell me indeed.

I have no problem rising above propaganda. I have no doubt that you and I have very different ideas of what does and does not constitute propaganda, so spare me the attempts to try to dismiss my opinions as parroting some non-existent party line while you somehow spout a purer and more valid set of beliefs.

Dear Cariad, my term short term memory comment was in reguard to political memory and the fact that few remember that they did the same exact thing to McCain.  I do not know you in any manner as to your own personal issues and medical condition, so please forgive me if I have offended. I was NOT referring to any physical condition since I was not aware that you have that or any other specific difficulty. Please forgive me and I offer my humble apology if I have offended, my comments were not anything but referring to the political blindness some have in promoting a racial attribution to questioning where Obama was born and not remembering the very strong group of people who questioned McCain for the same exact cause.

[Hemodoc]

I really question Hemodoc's responses.  It truly appears that he is on this board as a troll sometimes.  I found the responses equally as ridiculous and I believe an apology is in order. He should be ashamed.  If you truly are a doctor your response is even more disturbing.

Great Comment YLGuy. I respond to someone declaring my politics racist and I am a troll. Great analogy my friend.

[Hemodoc]

Hemodoc IS a doctor and has a very informative and advocative (is that a word? ) blog for dialysis/renal patients.  Just today he posted about his self-cannulation technique and his own infection control protocols based on his own substantial medical knowledge.  While we might not see eye to eye on every political issue, Hemodoc is a fervent dialysis patient advocate and has written many articles showing the same.  Just sayin'!

Thanks Moosemom, I believe that IHD is a place to speak your mind which I actually don't do that much on this site but on rare occasions when outragious comments are propagated such as implying racist origins of conservative opposition to Obama. YLGuy took issue with my religious and political views long ago and if he thinks I am a troll, so be it. I couldn't care less.

[Hemodoc]

Dear Moosemom, I haven't heard the Gingrich plan for a base on the moon, but are you aware of the technological breakthroughs of the space program that are now applied to dialysis and so many other industries? We have yet to develop all of the technologies invented in the 1960's such as sorbents for instance. Miniaturization for space craft has improved computers, plastics, metalurgy and a whole list of other breakthroughs that are applied in our daily lives without even realizing that today.

I am not sure that we could mount another space program today with our education system in complete ruin at present. If you recall, the kids of the 1960's scored the highest ever on SAT'S and it has been down hill since then. We would literally have to import engineers from India, China and the middle east to put such a program together today. So not sure where this proposal will ever go, but we are no longer the nation we were in the 1960's where innovation and science were part of the American core fabric of our society.

[Gerald Lively]

Bam, slam sock and knock.  I won’t comment - - I won’t, I won’t . . . . .  no, no, I won’t.  I love politics.

Okay, folks.  I was the Butte County Jail Administrator for four years during a lawsuit over jail conditions.  By the way, Butte County is in California and California is not “gang infested,” whatever that means. 

Since World War II, it has been the Republican Presidents that ran up the National Debt. It has been Eisenhower and the other Democratic Presidents that made payments against the National Debt.

The historical failure of most nations in World history, has been either defeat in war or the cost of continual warfare.

During at least three debates, a GOP candidate proposed the elimination of the Department of Education.  In my opinion, education is the future.

The birther issue has absolutely no basis in fact.  At least three Federal Court have said so.

Yes, Congress is corrupt.  So, what are you going to do about it?

There are more than 200 federal appointments being held up by the GOP in committee.  Why?

War is not an answer.  It never is.  We need to make a clear distinction between just war and jingoism.  In my humble opinion WWII was a just unavoidable war.  Every war since has been jingoism.

The Patriot Act is a violation of everyone’s civil rights.

At least one GOP candidate wants to eliminate the Civil Rights Act of 1964. That same candidate wants to return to the Gold Standard.  Holy Moly!

No Presidential candidate that I have heard, speaks of the future.

I just got back from dialysis.  I hate dialysis.

My dog ate my baseball, the one used to strengthen my fistula arm. 

Obama has not been ballsy enough when facing Congress.

Why, after nearly bringing the government to a halt, did the new GOP members of the House, call in an economist to better understand economics?

When are we going to put bankers in jail?

Whatever happened to anti-trust laws?

If your credit card is charging over 10% interest, isn’t that usury?

Is America going to hell in a handbasket?  Every old fart I know has said that.  I believe it.

Gerald
Not a doctor but I want to play one on TV.

[Gerald Lively]

Posted on another forum:

Goldwater represents the kind of candidate we do not see today.  While I saw him as a war-hawk, he did fairly and honestly make his case.  Today, Gus, as you portrayed, we have a gang of power-hungry people seeking the presidency.  No more do we see concern for the people.  More often than not, I ponder the question; “Is the system broke?”  We have become a reactive bunch, we do not do the thinking required for good government – per Adlai Stevenson.  Who should we voted for?  I haven’t seen anyone worthy of that civic gesture - - yet.
 
Gerald Lively

[cariad]

Bam, slam sock and knock.  I won’t comment - - I won’t, I won’t . . . . .  no, no, I won’t.  I love politics.

Okay, folks.  I was the Butte County Jail Administrator for four years during a lawsuit over jail conditions.  By the way, Butte County is in California and California is not “gang infested,” whatever that means. 

Since World War II, it has been the Republican Presidents that ran up the National Debt. It has been Eisenhower and the other Democratic Presidents that made payments against the National Debt.

The historical failure of most nations in World history, has been either defeat in war or the cost of continual warfare.

During at least three debates, a GOP candidate proposed the elimination of the Department of Education.  In my opinion, education is the future.

The birther issue has absolutely no basis in fact.  At least three Federal Court have said so.

Yes, Congress is corrupt.  So, what are you going to do about it?

There are more than 200 federal appointments being held up by the GOP in committee.  Why?

War is not an answer.  It never is.  We need to make a clear distinction between just war and jingoism.  In my humble opinion WWII was a just unavoidable war.  Every war since has been jingoism.

The Patriot Act is a violation of everyone’s civil rights.

At least one GOP candidate wants to eliminate the Civil Rights Act of 1964. That same candidate wants to return to the Gold Standard.  Holy Moly!

No Presidential candidate that I have heard, speaks of the future.

I just got back from dialysis.  I hate dialysis.

My dog ate my baseball, the one used to strengthen my fistula arm. 

Obama has not been ballsy enough when facing Congress.

Why, after nearly bringing the government to a halt, did the new GOP members of the House, call in an economist to better understand economics?

When are we going to put bankers in jail?

Whatever happened to anti-trust laws?

If your credit card is charging over 10% interest, isn’t that usury?

Is America going to hell in a handbasket?  Every old fart I know has said that.  I believe it.

Gerald
Not a doctor but I want to play one on TV.

Gerald Lively, don't tell anyone, but I am quite certain that I am falling in love with you and your delightful style.... 

[cariad]

Dear Cariad, my term short term memory comment was in reguard to political memory and the fact that few remember that they did the same exact thing to McCain.  I do not know you in any manner as to your own personal issues and medical condition, so please forgive me if I have offended. I was NOT referring to any physical condition since I was not aware that you have that or any other specific difficulty. Please forgive me and I offer my humble apology if I have offended, my comments were not anything but referring to the political blindness some have in promoting a racial attribution to questioning where Obama was born and not remembering the very strong group of people who questioned McCain for the same exact cause.

OK, thanks for the explanation and for the apology. I do truly appreciate that.

I cannot forget what I was never made aware of, so this has nothing to do with conveniently forgetting anything. I believe the birther movement's inception was grounded in racism. That is not calling you nor your politics racist, didn't you just say this was not a political issue anymore or something?. With McCain, I can remember one discussion I had with friends at the crisis line (all liberals) and when I asked where McCain was born, they said he was born in Panama, but it was on a military base, so he met the citizen requirement. That was all I ever heard on that subject.

Anyhow, I hope we can all just move on to friendlier discussion, without personal attacks and without assuming the worst in everyone's comments. I usually enjoy these discussions immensely and learn a lot from them, but we should be able to discuss racism or any other sensitive issue without deteriorating into bitter infighting. I think we all are coming from a place of sincerity and good intention.

[YLGuy]

I really question Hemodoc's responses.  It truly appears that he is on this board as a troll sometimes.  I found the responses equally as ridiculous and I believe an apology is in order. He should be ashamed.  If you truly are a doctor your response is even more disturbing.

Great Comment YLGuy. I respond to someone declaring my politics racist and I am a troll. Great analogy my friend.

How many times do you have to be told that the comment was NOT directed to you???
Here, let me help:
T h e   c o m m e n t   w a s  s a y i n g   t h a t  t h e  b i r t h e r  m o v e m e n t  h a s  r a c i a l       u n d e r t o n e s.   I t   d o e s   n o t   s a y   y o u   o r   y o u r   p o l i t i c s   a r e   r a c i s t
 





EDITED: Removed Bold Prompt- Sluff/Admin

[lmunchkin]

All political differences aside: I do believe that the Great Depression my grandparents raised my parents in will happen for this generation also.  My children & grand children will suffer because of our indulgences! I pray Jesus's return before then, but no one knows the moment in which he comes.

Bill &Hemodoc, I do love you both and sending  to you along with  .  You and Bill have helped me in many ways with your posts, just want you both to know that!

lmunchkin
 

[Hemodoc]

All political differences aside: I do believe that the Great Depression my grandparents raised my parents in will happen for this generation also.  My children & grand children will suffer because of our indulgences! I pray Jesus's return before then, but no one knows the moment in which he comes.

Bill &Hemodoc, I do love you both and sending  to you along with  .  You and Bill have helped me in many ways with your posts, just want you both to know that!

lmunchkin
 

Dear lmunchkin,

Bill has been there for a lot of us folks over the years. In fact that is how I started blogging by simply asking him a question about buttonholes. He is first dialysis patient with no medical background to be including in The Experts Panel a little over a year ago where he rubbed shoulders with the biggest academic nephrologists and he more than held his own. I believe that there is a manner of civil discourse that allows people to express their opinions and discuss issues instead of personalities. Some folks get it, some don't.

I hope all is well, God bless,

Peter