Should Sara Palin be held accountable?

[cariad]

I don't see this thread as saying she is responsible for the shooting, but that statements like hers can have dire consequences. Of course the shooter was probably mentally ill - I think he would have to be - but it is no secret that we have mentally ill people in this country who can be set off by violent rhetoric. She had plenty of time to 'refudiate' her remarks, but when she is called to account for herself, she just digs in further rather than consider that she may be wrong. My four year old does this.

Since she is not in office and therefore avoids one of the most common ways to hold a politician responsible (voting her out of office) it's left to people to speak up and suggest that this was beyond the pale. If you make a threat against the president, that is an automatic crime. If you make a joke about a bomb in a security line at the airport, you are held accountable and have to suffer the consequences. Why should a person with millions of followers be any different?

[YLGuy]

LOL so the map made someone shoot them? Get real.

Someone tried to assassinate President Reagan to impress Jodie Foster.  Weirder things have happened.

Yes, and those people are mentally ill. Would you blame Jodie Foster for making movies??

Give me a break. Someone with Sara's popularity should not be putting cross-hares on people.  It is reckless.  Politicians on both sides are rarely held accountable for their ludicrous statements.  The shooter was caught.  It could be that he never even heard of her map. 

Imagine if one of your family members was "targeted"?  Would you still feel the same way? Would you? Honestly!

[cariad]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40978517/ns/politics/?gt1=43001

This article mentions that the congresswoman has been threatened in the past - over her support of health care reform. Sarah Palin is mentioned.

[greg10]

The campaign rhetoric from Giffords' opponent, Jesse Kelly, had been inflammatory:

[cariad]

The campaign rhetoric from Giffords' opponent, Jesse Kelly, had been inflammatory:

Perfectly nauseating! What is this country coming to?

[okarol]

...putting cross-hares on people. 

Just FYI - I believe it's "crosshairs" - lines that cross in the focus plane and are use for sighting

[Hemodoc]

LOL so the map made someone shoot them? Get real.

Someone tried to assassinate President Reagan to impress Jodie Foster.  Weirder things have happened.

Yes, and those people are mentally ill. Would you blame Jodie Foster for making movies??

Give me a break. Someone with Sara's popularity should not be putting cross-hares on people.  It is reckless.  Politicians on both sides are rarely held accountable for their ludicrous statements.  The shooter was caught.  It could be that he never even heard of her map. 

Imagine if one of your family members was "targeted"?  Would you still feel the same way? Would you? Honestly!

I agree it is reckless and pretty stupid really, but so be it, it will be one of the issues raised in the next campaign.  I wouldn't go beyond stupid to responsible though.

I heard a few years ago from somewhere that many were privately stating we are only a few years away from a civil war in America.  At the time I thought that was laughable, I no longer do because of how little wisdom people on both sides of the ailse speak, on inflammatory rhetoric.  I remember it wasn't that long ago where people of opposite political ideology could engage in civil discussions, I don't think that is possible any longer.  I would simply point out there are people who will benefit from this discord behind the scenes cheering both sides of the opposition on.

Let's hopefully go back to the roots of this republic, not a democracy, and get back to the rule of law.  A republic is based on the rule of the law, a democracy is based on the rule of the majority, there is a great divide between those two political systems.  Unfortunately, we seem to no longer have any common sense on either side of the situation.  That is not the America that I knew as a child and it wasn't that long ago, I am only 52.

[Hemodoc]

The campaign rhetoric from Giffords' opponent, Jesse Kelly, had been inflammatory:

I would just point out that that bozo was rejected and rightfully so by the will of the people. I am literally a gun toting Republican, but that sort of nonsense does my quest to protect the rights that I enjoy as  US citizen much harder.  I grew up in Alaska and have always enjoyed the outdoors which meant we always had some sort of gun with us, there are things in those beautiful woods that eat people.  I enjoy the right to keep and bear arms and do so with great care and responsibility.

Glad to see the Democrat win against such an idiot.  I personally feel that the so called tea party candidate was mocking my constitutional rights with his gimmicks.

Let's go back to getting some real statesmen on both sides before we explode this entire country.  Don't think it couldn't happen here and I would hope that would sober our thoughts and our spoken words.  America is a great nation, but there is no guarantee it will remain that way.  Like it or not, we all have to work together for the common good.  I am not sure anymore that is possible.

[cariad]

Here is a quote from the article I linked where congresswoman Giffords spoke about Sarah Palin's actions. I believe this statement was made around election time this past year.


"For example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action," Giffords said in an interview with MSNBC.

What a way to be proven right.

[YLGuy]

...putting cross-hares on people. 

Just FYI - I believe it's "crosshairs" - lines that cross in the focus plane and are use for sighting

Crosshairs are most commonly represented as intersecting lines in the shape of a cross, "+", though many variations exist, including dots, posts, circles, scales, chevrons, or a combination of these. Most commonly associated with telescopic sights for aiming firearms.

[Hemodoc]

The shooters name has been leaked to the press and he is apparantlyy a white supremist with a quite deluded manifesto on video just before he went to do what he himself terms a terrorist action.  This is not about politics folks, this is a deluded and deranged attempt at terror, with 5 people dead, I would say he got the worlds attention which is all these nut jobs want.

Read his commentary and see if you can gain a political statement or simple delusion.  I suspect he will be found to be mentally incapable of standing trial when it is all said and done.  Taking this deranged action and making political implications from what I see so far in my mind is simply wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvyo1H6DaOk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM_zApVcXs0

[okarol]

...putting cross-hares on people. 

Just FYI - I believe it's "crosshairs" - lines that cross in the focus plane and are use for sighting

Crosshairs are most commonly represented as intersecting lines in the shape of a cross, "+", though many variations exist, including dots, posts, circles, scales, chevrons, or a combination of these. Most commonly associated with telescopic sights for aiming firearms.

Yes, I know. But Cross-hares are angry bunnies. LOL It's the spelling, not the definition I was highlighting.

[cariad]

Slate magazine says NPR and other news have reported Giffords is dead. 

[MooseMom]

The shooters name has been leaked to the press and he is apparantlyy a white supremist with a quite deluded manifesto on video just before he went to do what he himself terms a terrorist action.  This is not about politics folks, this is a deluded and deranged attempt at terror, with 5 people dead, I would say he got the worlds attention which is all these nut jobs want.

Then he is a domestic terrorist just like Timothy McVeigh.  You're probably right...it's probably not about partisan politics but something much more sinister.  This doesn't make me feel any better!

I believe in a loyal opposition.  I don't automatically assume that those who may not agree with my political positions are disloyal or unpatriotic, but I sense that I am in the minority in this regard.

But we have to remember that this nutjob may have targetted any politician who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.  If he wanted to really strike a blow against the government, he might well not have cared if his target was R or D.  We just don't yet know what his motivation was.  We don't even know yet if he was working alone.

[MooseMom]

Slate magazine says NPR and other news have reported Giffords is dead. 

Well, I'm watching CNN right now and am following NPR's and HP's sites, and I haven't read that.

[Hemodoc]

The shooters name has been leaked to the press and he is apparantlyy a white supremist with a quite deluded manifesto on video just before he went to do what he himself terms a terrorist action.  This is not about politics folks, this is a deluded and deranged attempt at terror, with 5 people dead, I would say he got the worlds attention which is all these nut jobs want.

Then he is a domestic terrorist just like Timothy McVeigh.  You're probably right...it's probably not about partisan politics but something much more sinister.  This doesn't make me feel any better!

I believe in a loyal opposition.  I don't automatically assume that those who may not agree with my political positions are disloyal or unpatriotic, but I sense that I am in the minority in this regard.

But we have to remember that this nutjob may have targetted any politician who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.  If he wanted to really strike a blow against the government, he might well not have cared if his target was R or D.  We just don't yet know what his motivation was.  We don't even know yet if he was working alone.

Good points MooseMom, this is a tragedy today for all Americans, even thoughs that don't share the congress woman's politics.  She still has a right to bring forth her ideas in public safely.  I hope that is is seen in that context just like the shooting of a Republican president was likewise not a political statement, but simply a nut job trying to get world wide attention.

[cariad]

White supremacy is a very political position. Ask any South African.

I am sure he is mentally ill, though I would not be so sure that he will be found incompetent to stand trial. That is a difficult position to argue and rarely works. We have seen a fair number of barking mad individuals put away in prison.

Laws surrounding free speech are very clear on this, and speech that incites violence is not protected. I still feel that politicians need to dial it down and stop talking like the wackos who perpetrate these crimes. They need to take responsibility for their statements and examine how they might be contributing to a culture of violence. Words matter.

[cariad]

Slate magazine says NPR and other news have reported Giffords is dead. 

Well, I'm watching CNN right now and am following NPR's and HP's sites, and I haven't read that.

Good. I have been hoping that someone will tell me I'm wrong. Here is the article - look at the third paragraph, after the word UPDATE if you care to.

[MooseMom]

Re white supremacy...Congresswoman Giffords is a "blue dog" democrat but she supported immigration reform ie secure borders plus a path to citizenship.  She was seen as an up and coming effective voice on immigration.  Ironically, what she has supported in this regard is much like what George Bush supported.  So it is possible (conjecture here) that she was targetted not because she was a Democrat or a Republican but because of her views on immigration if it is true that this shooter is a white supremacist.  I guess we'll find out soon.

[MooseMom]

I just remembered something...about 18 months ago, my then-Congressman was having one of these meet and greet things at our local grocery store.  My husband and I went and got to speak to him.  What if some lunatic had come by and started shooting at us?  Good grief.

[billmoria]

Palin's Pac Map: "Crosshairs" which features 20  TARGETED  Congress members who voted for Obama's health care bill. Her language was inflamatory: "Don't retreat, instead - RELOAD!"  The next day Congressman Giffords Tuscon office was vandalized. Giffords' father told the New York Post that members of the Tea Party "always threatened" his daughter.
Such language, in my opinion, does incite violence.

The Tea Party candidate (Jesse Kelly) used even more violent language in a campaign event called "Get on TARGET for Victory in November". He described the event as "Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from Office." "SHOOT A FULLY AUTOMATIC M-16 WITH JESSE KELLY."

I wonder if the automatic weapon the killer used was a M-16. He killed 6 and wounded 12.

Violent language begets VIOLENCE.

[KarenInWA]

I am so saddened and pissed off about this tragedy today.  It pisses me off because it compromises all of our safety.  I think it is awesome that Congress is having these "meet and greets", but now I wonder - will it go on?  I am saddened that our freedoms keep being taken away because of the actions of a few.  I am scared for my country, and what the future may bring.  I am angry that some politicians feel it necessary to display childish gun lingo and icons on their campaign material, and disturbed that some in this country support that.  The anger in me then brings out questions like this - why is being "white trash" in the way we conduct business in this country accepted?  Take a look at Sarah Palin - potential presidential contender, on down to "Jersey Shore" being such a major hit.  Why can't we be civil???

KarenInWA

[Hemodoc]

State Sen. Linda Lopez, a close friend of Giffords', told Fox News that the three-term congresswoman was shot in the temple and the bullet exited through her forehead. Lopez said Giffords was responding to commands.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/08/arizona-congresswoman-reportedly-shot-public-event/#ixzz1AVbDHDWS

This is a very survivable injury from that description but difficult to tell what kind of long term difficulties she will have.  One of my patients had a large brain tumor in this section of his brain and upon recovery was able to return to his full work duties.  Some people show remarkable resilience to these sort of injuries.  Hopefully, she will be one of those with time.

[MooseMom]

What worries me the most is that it may become more and more difficult to find decent, honorable people to serve in government.  As long as we keep making government "the enemy", and as long as we see the vilification of people running for office as good sport, who is really going to want to be in public service?

It also worries me that this event may deter congresspeople from meeting with their constituents, and this would undermine our democracy.  So I heartily agree with you, KareninWA.

Hemodoc, yes, I've heard that her surgeons are optimistic about her recovery.  I dunno...maybe it takes something like this to remind our congresspeople (and the rest of us) that we cannot let anything interfere with the people's work.  Everyone on both sides of the aisle seem to hold Rep Giffords in very high regard; it's really nice to hear one congressperson say good things about another.

[Hemodoc]

What worries me the most is that it may become more and more difficult to find decent, honorable people to serve in government.  As long as we keep making government "the enemy", and as long as we see the vilification of people running for office as good sport, who is really going to want to be in public service?

It also worries me that this event may deter congresspeople from meeting with their constituents, and this would undermine our democracy.  So I heartily agree with you, KareninWA.

Hemodoc, yes, I've heard that her surgeons are optimistic about her recovery.  I dunno...maybe it takes something like this to remind our congresspeople (and the rest of us) that we cannot let anything interfere with the people's work.  Everyone on both sides of the aisle seem to hold Rep Giffords in very high regard; it's really nice to hear one congressperson say good things about another.

The fact that she is following commands and responding appropriately this early in the game is a very good prognostic sign and probably one of the reasons you are hearing "optimistic" reports from her doctors.  I have taken care of several brain injury patients who I thought would be complete vegetables who did remarkably well with time.  She certainly is not out of the woods by any means, but from the initial reports I am hearing, it does sound as if she will be more fortunate than many that fell today.  I heard that he shot up to 19 people and that they are looking for a second suspect.

Has anyone heard what kind of weapons he had?  With his background it is not likely he was the one that purchased the weapons.