It took a Britian

[YLGuy]

It is a Community Center that has a couple of floors dedicated to prayer 2 blocks from Ground Zero! IT IS NOT ON Ground Zero.  Get over it.

[glitter]

It is a Community Center that has a couple of floors dedicated to prayer 2 blocks from Ground Zero! IT IS NOT ON Ground Zero.  Get over it.

I cant 'get over' it being a bad idea that just creates distance between muslims and non-muslims.

I can't 'get over' the lack of mainstream muslim outcry when extremeists act- one or two stand up-where are the millions that are supposedly against it? Why are they silent? And why are you okay with that?

[okarol]

To everyone:
The ideas here are from differing points of view, and I am glad we can have discussions.
If your goal is to persuade people to change their minds on political issues here on a kidney forum, you may be wasting your time and alienating members.
That being said, I appreciate your discretion and maturity.
If this gets too much like bickering I am inclined to lock the thread.

okarol/admin

[BigSky]

It is a Community Center that has a couple of floors dedicated to prayer 2 blocks from Ground Zero! IT IS NOT ON Ground Zero.  Get over it.

Well if that is the case that its a community center, the claims are false as to protection because of religion.

No fear or hate?   Then maybe ignorance or unwillingness to research and seek higher knowledge? 

More like distrust because of the lack by Muslims to weed out and speak out as a whole against the terrorists and the terrorist sympathizers within the ranks of Islam.


The vast majority of terrorist attacks in the past 15 years are the result of Muslim terrorists.  As such it is up to the Muslim community to be front and center time and time again speaking out as A WHOLE against these people and it is up to them to be at the front in weeding these people out of their ranks.  The problem is that its just not happening.



This is why people have so much distrust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG1DYuzVgSk&NR=1

[RichardMEL]

I've only come back to read this thread because a complaint was made regarding some of the content.

Karol has already made a comment, so I make the following comment WITHOUT a moderator's hat on:

I find some of the comments made in this thread to be so generalised as to be meaningless. It's very easy to tar a race of people with one brush(eg: "Yes, the majority of Muslims are tolerant to other religions (but not to women)"), but it's simply not fair. It's like saying "All Americans are fat" - clearly untrue and offensive. I think Henry's post was vary fair, as have been Cariad's.

Sometimes, when you're too close emotionally to something it's more difficult to put things into proper perspective (not saying that I'm easily able to do this either!)

I don't really think that this forum (even though this is in the off topic area) is the place for such debates. We all know how issues relating to politics and religion usually end up mired in almost everyone getting upset or offended in some manner by the end of it.

Again, this is just my opinion, and not written as a moderator.

[aharris2]

If two blocks from Ground Zero is too close, how many blocks is acceptable?

Five, ten, twenty blocks from Ground Zero?

 

Thank you Zach

[BigSky]

If two blocks from Ground Zero is too close, how many blocks is acceptable?

Five, ten, twenty blocks from Ground Zero?

How about the same distance it is acceptable to build a Christian Church at Mecca, from  the Masjid al-Haram?

 

[Mimi]

 how many blocks is acceptable?

Five, ten, twenty blocks from Ground Zero?

Thank you Zach

I have not thought of it in blocks.    Hmmmm maybe China, but I don't know how many blocks that is or Mexico, mabe that would take care of Arizona, too.  Yes Mexico, that's it.

[mogee]

The Fourteenth Amendment

The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees the religious civil rights.[8] Whereas the First Amendment secures the free exercise of religion, section one of the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion, by securing "the equal protection of the laws" for every person:
“    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

This is about freedom of religion. NOT freedom of your religion.  My son put it best: If you are against this being built then you are NOT a good American.

There is nothing in the constitution requiring individuals to treat all religions alike or treat all categories of people equally.  If the community centre is not built because Americans have howled in protest, and those protests are respected by the developer, no privilege or immunity was abridged.  YLGuy, your son should recognize that the Constitution is a document which constrains the government, not the citizens, of the U.S.  Taking a position against a Mosque is no less American than establishing a church in your own community. 

I'm familiar with the fourteenth amendment and the concept of incorporation.  I've read about a dozen Supreme Court decisions considering the provision, all from the late nineteenth and early twentieth century.  There is no connection between the amendment and any of the issues raised here.  YLGuy, does your son generally believe that Good Americans are those who live within the constraints imposed by the constitution on government?

[Ken Shelmerdine]

but is it a good idea? Just because something is legal to do- does not make it a wise choice. If they are going to try to build bridges with people who are not muslims- then why do something that alienates so many?


And where is the public outcry from muslims when extremeists do something? Why is it okay for the mass majority of muslims who you say are peaceful- to say/do nothing?

Glitter, as the saying goes 'Evil prospers when good men do nothing' many moderate muslims are fearful of showing any kind of opposition to the radicals and so remain silent. This unfortunately is a a human characteristic. It happened in Nazi Germany. The atrocities of Hitler's Third Riech went ahead whilst the populace remained silent.

Throughout history there are many examples where fanatical extremists hijack religious and political movements for their own ends and any opposition from within is met with extreme punishments.

The perceived lack of protest from muslim comunities cannot be acceptable as evidence of collaboration

[Stoday]

It was fortunate that in 1941, after Hitler had waged war for a couple of years, America decided it would no longer tolerate Nazis.

[Riki]

It was fortunate that in 1941, after Hitler had waged war for a couple of years, America decided it would no longer tolerate Nazis.

I don't know why, but this struck me funny

Have to wonder, though.. if Japan hadn't attack Pearl Harbour, would the US have taken part in WW2 at all?

A lot of Americans, before the US entered the war, didn't think about Hitler that much, some even agreed with his views.  One in particular, Henry Ford (who is actually idolized in my house), liked Hitler, because of his views of Jews.  It wasn't until after he learned what Hitler was doing to the Jews that his opinion changed.

yeah. totally unrelated.. I'll shut up now

[Henry P Snicklesnorter]

It was fortunate that in 1941, after Hitler had waged war for a couple of years, America decided it would no longer tolerate Nazis.

The US only declared war on Japan (After Pearl Harbour.) Germany subsequently declared war on the US as part of its obligations under the Tripartite Act between Germany, Italy and Japan.
One can only speculate when or even if the US may have declared war on Germany in the absence of Germany's declaration of war. In spite of the enormous logistical support that the US was providing in increasing volumes to the Allies, it showed no sign of entering the war until Pearl Harbour and even then, only declared war on Japan. The US became involved against Germany because of Germany's declaration of war against the US, not because it decided it would no longer tolerate the Nazis. Some historians see it as a huge blunder by Hitler.
Me, I'm thankful that it happened. The free world ought never forget that without US commitment in both theatres, Europe and the Pacific, both Germany and Japan both would almost certainly prevailed in their ambitions.

[Jean]

I am also thankful Henry. What is the old saying, if you can read this, thank a teacher, if you can read it in English, thank a soldier.

[MooseMom]

A new Catholic church is being built near our neighborhood, and I personally am vehemently opposed to it because we all know that Catholic priests are nothing but paedophiles or their apologists............

It is irrelevant whether or not a church is allowed to be built in Mecca.  This is not Saudi Arabia, rather, this is America, and to compare our tradition of religious tolerance to theirs of the exact opposite is pointless and even offensive.

If this mosque/cultural center is in fact built in Manhattan, I would suspect that it will be the most government watched property in the country.  If it does become a hotbed of Muslim fanatacism and the cradle of terrorism, that would point to gross negligence and ineptitude from our intelligence services.  I would hope that the NSA/FBI/Homeland Security would not be that moronic.

Ground Zero is not "sacred ground"; if it were, there would not have been the unseemly squabbling surrounding how to use that site.

The People of New York elected officials to represent them.  Those officials voted 9-0 to allow that site to be used at the owners's discretion.  Ergo, the people have, in fact, spoken according to our democratic tradition.

[MooseMom]

Oh, and we all know that Catholics are intolerant of women, too.  Why do some Christians allow women to teach men but Catholics do not?  This new church is just going to become yet another hotbed of anti-women practices...

[YLGuy]

It is just so sad that there are still so many closed minded people with so much hate.

I am done with this thread.

[MooseMom]

(I just wanted to make a point about the dangers of extrapolating...)

[BigSky]

It is irrelevant whether or not a church is allowed to be built in Mecca.  This is not Saudi Arabia, rather, this is America, and to compare our tradition of religious tolerance to theirs of the exact opposite is pointless and even offensive.

Actually its very much relevant that a Christian church is not allowed to built near the Masjid al-Haram.  It shows how Islam truly feels about others religions.

Oh, and we all know that Catholics are intolerant of women, too.  Why do some Christians allow women to teach men but Catholics do not?  This new church is just going to become yet another hotbed of anti-women practices...

Hmm  you complain about Catholics not letting women teach, but yet you defend a religion that commits honor killings.   Interesting.

[Stoday]

Some years ago we caught a Catholic terrorist trying to blow up the English parliament.

Every year since then, not just every town, not just every villiage but every neighbourhood in England has built a bonfire on 11/5 and thrown an effigy of the terrorist on it. That reminds Catholics to behave. Seems to have worked too. 

[MooseMom]

No religion commits honor killings.  Those atrocities are committed by cultures, not by religions.  Islam encompasses many different cultures, and the same can be said about Hinduism and Christianity and Judaism.  The way that Christianity is practiced in Alabama is very different than the way it is practiced in, say, Mexico.  Unfortunately, there are many cultures that practice abominable behaviour toward women.  Where have I "defended" any religion?  In my mind, religion is different from faith. "Religion" is a manmade construct.  Of all the "Christian" cultures, only the US condones and actively pursues capital punishment.  How does the American Christian defend this practice to, day, a European Christian?  You see, these things are often CULTURALLY driven.

I still maintain that it is irrelevant what happens in Saudi Arabia.  I don't care that they are intolerant.  But it is illogical to extrapolate that because Wahabism is practiced by Muslims in one country, it is practiced by all Muslims in America and ergo all Muslims are intolerant.  Such sweeping generalizations are worrisome and do not show Americans in a good light.  Instead of caring so much about how Saudis don't like churches, maybe we should concentrate on maintaining our own American traditions of religious tolerance.

This is the sort of topic on which no one will ever change his/her mind, so I will bow out now that I've given my humble opinion!   May God bless us all and help us to all treat each other with respect and love.

Stoday, I know all about Guy Fawkes Night...I've attended many a bonfire.  Too bad the Catholic hierarchy didn't get the reminder to "behave".  I wonder how many British yoofs even know the origins of that particular "celebration".

[BigSky]

No religion commits honor killings.  Those atrocities are committed by cultures, not by religions.  Islam encompasses many different cultures, and the same can be said about Hinduism and Christianity and Judaism.  The way that Christianity is practiced in Alabama is very different than the way it is practiced in, say, Mexico.  Unfortunately, there are many cultures that practice abominable behaviour toward women.  Where have I "defended" any religion?  In my mind, religion is different from faith. "Religion" is a manmade construct.  Of all the "Christian" cultures, only the US condones and actively pursues capital punishment.  How does the American Christian defend this practice to, day, a European Christian?  You see, these things are often CULTURALLY driven.

Except the one key thing in all of them are the people are Muslim, it would seem to indicate its a bit more than culture.

Capital Punishment?

Its pretty simple to understand the view.

Those given capital punishment are people that are convicted of a heinous crime, most notably its murder by a jury of their peers. 

If you really wanted to complain about something, it should be the killing of INNOCENT children through abortion, not about someone who has committed murder and been convicted by a jury of their peers and sentenced for their crime.




 

I still maintain that it is irrelevant what happens in Saudi Arabia.  I don't care that they are intolerant.  But it is illogical to extrapolate that because Wahabism is practiced by Muslims in one country, it is practiced by all Muslims in America and ergo all Muslims are intolerant.  Such sweeping generalizations are worrisome and do not show Americans in a good light.  Instead of caring so much about how Saudis don't like churches, maybe we should concentrate on maintaining our own American traditions of religious tolerance.

When I generalize, its the generalization that the community does not take enough action against the terrorists and their sympathizers withing the ranks of Islam.

Actually this thing of generalizing that all Muslims are "Westernized" is far more disturbing.   Despite what Obama claimed about the US being one of the biggest Muslims countries, we are not.  Of the top 50 Muslim countries, the US is 48th.


Also that view against other religions goes far past just "one country".

Just a handful of views in other Muslim countries on other religions.





Saudi Arabia – Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-Muslim to enter the “holy” Muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.

Yemen – Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.

Kuwait – Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam.

Egypt –Religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship.

Algeria – The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution. The country has passed the “Regulation of Religious Practice” law, which stipulates a punishment of two to five years’ imprisonment and heavy fines for anyone convicted of urging a Muslim to change his religion.

Syria – The constitution requires the president to be a Muslim and specifies that Islamic jurisprudence is a principal source of legislation. Sharing your Christian faith is discouraged as “posing a threat to the relations among religious groups” and carries a penalty of up to life in prison. A Christian is not allowed to proselytize – ever.

Sudan – Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death.

Pakistan – Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims. Christians regularly put in prison for charges of blasphemy.


Qatar  The government continues to prohibit proselytizing of Muslims by non-Muslims.

Malaysia –Apostasy or conversion out of Islam is punishable by whipping, fines, imprisonment and—in the most extreme application—death.

The Maldives –  Christianity is simply not tolerated.  Christians who do get together to worship, they risk  imprisonment or worse if discovered by the Muslim authorities. Bibles are banned, and tourists can be arrested for trying to bring them into the country.

Iran-  Muslim converts to Christianity can be executed and have been.  Has taken measures to eliminate proselytizing by non Muslims.



If anything the US needs to ban funding for Mosques from any country that imposes such things on other religions.

[Zach]

And then there were the Crusades.

[Poppylicious]

I wonder how many British yoofs even know the origins of that particular "celebration".

That would depend on their attendance at school during the one History lesson in Year 8 where it's touched upon.

 

[MooseMom]

No, honor killers are not all Muslim.  They are all CULTURALLY taught that women are no more than personal property.  The Koran does not condone these killings, but the Taliban does.  Are you generalizing once again that all Muslims are also Taliban?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.htm

If I am to complain about anything, I'll continue to complain about Christians in positions of power that condoned and covered up the systematic sexual abuse of children in their care.

I'm so glad that you posted how different Muslim countries treat non-Muslims.  Aren't you glad we're not like this here in the US?  Doesn't this make you proud to be American, that we are so careful to protect the religious freedom on which our core values are based?   You've proved my point, and I thank you.