It took a Britian

[glitter]

You might not like the opinion of some individuals- just don't knock us as a country. Americans are a great people, who have shown compassion thousands of times to people in need.

[Mimi]

According to CNN tonight the Mouque is already there and open.
It showed pictures of Muslims praying inside and also of Muslims coming out of the building.

Considering, Riki, that you are not a member of any faith I don't know why you are commenting.  Yesterday it was announced that Pakistan was only getting flood help from only 2 countries.  One of them is the U. S. A.

[monrein]

I hold an American passport but consider myself a citizen of the world in the sense that I find it important to consider things from multiple perspectives.   I'm also old enough to realize that pretty much nothing is all black or all white.   I don't discuss religion much since it seems to create misunderstanding far more than lead to mutual understanding.  Since I don't live in the US, although almost all my family members do, I'll contribute this article by Dick Cavett to the discussion here.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/20/real-americans-please-stand-up/

[Zach]

If two blocks from Ground Zero is too close, how many blocks is acceptable?

Five, ten, twenty blocks from Ground Zero?

[Poppylicious]

Yesterday it was announced that Pakistan was only getting flood help from only 2 countries.  One of them is the U. S. A.

The USA, France, Germany, Sweden, Japan, China, Australia, the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Italy, India ... that's more than two countries who have provided aid (and there are obviously more, but that was a quick two minute Google search and I don't have time to do more searching  ).

I'm also old enough to realize that pretty much nothing is all black or all white.   I don't discuss religion much since it seems to create misunderstanding far more than lead to mutual understanding.

Me too, which is why I'm ducking out of this thread as quickly as I ducked in ...

[Riki]

Considering, Riki, that you are not a member of any faith I don't know why you are commenting. 

What does it matter that I don't follow a faith?  I'm not an Athiest or Agnostic.  I believe in God.  I believe in one God, and that every religion sees Him in a different way.  I just don't follow a religion.  I find all their ritiual too much like a cut, and I grew up Catholic, so I know ritual.

The people who wish to build this have a constitutional right to build wherever they want.  It's private land.  It's 2 blocks away from one corner of the Ground Zero site.  It's not like it's going to loom over or anything.  Heck, it's only going to be 15 floors.  That's nothing in NYC.  It's going to be just another building.  A community center.  It just happens to be run by Muslims.  Big deal.

[cariad]

Considering, Riki, that you are not a member of any faith I don't know why you are commenting. 

This is a really sinister comment. Since when do we have to be of a particular faith to voice opinions about anything on IHD? If you don't like contrary opinions, then don't start discussions about highly political subjects! You don't like someone's opinion so you try to silence them by insinuating that they have no right to join a discussion?!

By the way, there is indeed a Muslim "prayer room" at the pentagon, same as there is to be a Muslim "prayer room" in the Muslim community centre that will replace the mosque or community centre that is already there. (I have no idea which and I don't care!) Unless ABC news is also making things up.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mosque-controversy-skips-pentagon-muslims-gather-911-crash/story?id=11417673

[paris]

A quick google search will show pictures and articles of the prayer room in the Pentagon.  Just feet away from where the plane crashed.  It is open to all religions.  At appropriate times, the prayer rugs are placed on the floor, the speaker podium moved so the people praying will face East.    Lots of interesting articles for both sides of the discussion.    Oh, and there are prayer rooms at all the military academies. 

Since I am a big theater person, I would love for people to listen to a song from South Pacific.  "You have to be carefully taught"   It reminds us that we aren't born to hate, we are taught it at an early age and it is continually reinforced.  Hate has always been in our world.  We don't like people who talk different, look different, dress different.  But we are who we are because of where we were born and who we grew up with.   I really don't think Christ intended to have a religion in His name that is full of hate.  I think He wanted us to be more like Him and love and accept everyone.   My personal opinion is there is one wonderful God and we call him many names.   My intention is not to change anyone's opinions, but if I believe in Jesus, then I need to live a Christ-like life and love my neighbor.             Please tell me why I keep reading this thread?  Oh yeah-- I am a mod and that is my job.  I just need to learn to not respond!!    LOL

[glitter]

I agree they have every right in our free country to have a prayer room/mosque/ whatever wherever they legally own the right to build a building.

HOWEVER, when so many Americans are upset by it- how does building that building right there, build relationships and bridges with their fellow Americans? ITs so upsetting to so many people- why can't they see that building it somewhere else would make a powerful statement to appease the feelings of the very people that are upset. Its not FORCING them to do it- just them being tolerant of peoples feelings. Why do they get a free pass to be insensitive?

I know our constitution lets them have all the freedoms of any other religion, and I support that 100%.

But they are knowingly being insensitive. and dont seem to care. 

[BigSky]

The people who wish to build this have a constitutional right to build wherever they want.  It's private land.  It's 2 blocks away from one corner of the Ground Zero site.  It's not like it's going to loom over or anything.  Heck, it's only going to be 15 floors.  That's nothing in NYC.  It's going to be just another building.  A community center.  It just happens to be run by Muslims.  Big deal.

There is a Constitutional right to freedom of religion, not a Constitutional Right to build a building wherever anyone wants.   If it was a Constitutional Right, all zoning codes would be invalid.


If Neo Nazis were trying to build a religious facility within the vicinity of the Holocaust Memorial, just as big of a uproar would occur. 

[Mimi]

Yesterday it was announced that Pakistan was only getting flood help from only 2 countries.  One of them is the U. S. A.

The USA, France, Germany, Sweden, Japan, China, Australia, the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Italy, India ... that's more than two countries who have provided aid (and there are obviously more, but that was a quick two minute Google search and I don't have time to do more searching  ).

I'm also old enough to realize that pretty much nothing is all black or all white.   I don't discuss religion much since it seems to create misunderstanding far more than lead to mutual understanding.

Me too, which is why I'm ducking out of this thread as quickly as I ducked in ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/aug/09/pakistan-flood-aid#data
Take a look at this.  Most of the countries have not lived up to their pledges

[YLGuy]

Big Sky...you made a horrible comparison.   Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof. It is not a religion.  You are blurring the lines between religion and political movements. 

[Mimi]

Muslims are not a tolerent people.  If they were they would have known Americans would be upset and angry.  I agree Paris that
we all need to be more Christ like.  But all through the Bible there were wars brought on by God himself to destroy the  evill enemy and
people worshiping other gods. 
No Caraid It is not a sinister comment.  It is the same thing Riiki
herself said on her first post. "not being an american or muslim (I don't consider myself a Christian either for that matter) perhaps I have no right to say anything.
Mogee I agree with you whole heartedly. YLGuy you say that not all
muslims follow the extremeist viewpoints.  However the Koran is their bible
and it says, according to Mohammed, that all infidels must die.  They worship a God callled Alllah, who is not my God.  My God is the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son,
 and God the Holy Spirit.
Oh and by the way Cariad I am not trying to silence anyone and I am not insinuating anything.  Maybe you should start at the beginning and read what other folks think.

[Henry P Snicklesnorter]

.

[cariad]

Muslims are not a tolerent people. 

That is simply untrue.

1.5 Billion people, only a small proportion of whom are of Middle Eastern origin, and only a tiny fraction of those involved in Radical Islam and terrorism, yet you condemn each and every one of them as intolerant based on their religious beliefs.  (In case you need reminding, you stated, "Muslims are not a tolerent people.") If it were not so sad, such a patently ridiculous viewpoint would be laughable.

I am given to wonder just who it is, that is displaying the greater intolerance.

Thank you for saying this, Henry. I could not agree more. (Hope you don't mind that I compressed your quote so much.) I could argue that Christians are intolerant if I based my views solely on the few wackos who murder doctors and protest at the funerals of dead soldiers. My kids play with Muslim children at school, are invited to their birthday parties, invite them to theirs. I audited an Arabic class several years ago and the teacher (actually the university librarian, but it is really difficult to find Arabic professors) was Libyan. He warned everyone that he would be pretty grouchy during Ramadan because they are supposed to cut out caffeine, but I never noticed. Timothy McVeigh (OK City bombing) was a veteran. So clearly we should ban all veteran centers from the vicinity.

Mimi, I have read what others think, both in this discussion and throughout the site. I was hesitant to join this site as an atheist (I read off and on for years before joining) but then I found an old post by Epoman in which he stated that there was a member who was a satanist who had been welcomed here and that was all I needed to read. There is a difference between someone questioning whether they have a stake in this discussion, and you hinting that they should not be commenting. I think that's rather obvious. Perhaps it is you that needs to do the reading. It was most certainly sinister. And I know we have/had members who are Muslim on IHD. How do you think they feel reading your comments and prejudices?

[Zach]

As Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”

[BigSky]

Big Sky...you made a horrible comparison.   Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof. It is not a religion.  You are blurring the lines between religion and political movements.

Actually the comparison is quite accurate. 

It doesnt matter if one is a religion or one is a political movement.  They both have basis in the first amendment.


The fact remains if they were to build a church, prayer facility, community center where I suggested the uproar would be the same.

[Stoday]

Before my illness, I worked in the majority of the countries in HPS's list (Pakistan, India and Turkey) and in Lebanon, which has also been mentioned. I have found the Muslims in these countries to be every bit as friendly as cariad and HPS suggest. Indeed, I have accepted invitations to eat in peoples homes in three of the countries.

The way in which Islam is interpreted and practiced varies significantly from country to country. I found (in the countries I've worked in) Lebanon to be the most tolerant, Pakistan the least. By tolerance here I mean tolerance of the supposed diktats of Islam. Alcohol is more or less tolerated; women are more or less segregated and so on.

It seems to be the less tolerant and more extreme fanatics who become indoctrinated mostly in the middle east where Islam is interpreted most strictly become terrorists and suicide bombers. They may be a minority, but they taint Islam with their intolerance. What are the majority of Muslims doing about it? Not a lot it seems Why no fatwas against Bin Laden? What remains in my mind is the jubilation of Muslims in Bradford (UK) when they heard of 9/11.

Yes, the majority of Muslims are tolerant to other religions (but not to women), so much so that they tolerate intolerance among their members. Thus Islam as a whole becomes intolerant.

[Henry P Snicklesnorter]

.

[paris]

This is all very sad.    We live with such fear.  Each generation there is another group to hate and fear.  I sat in church today thinking about this thread.   All I could think is that at the end of my life, when I meet my Maker, I hope I got it right by being accepting, willing to learn, and not judging.   I will get back to you on that some day!!     Everyone has an opinion, but we really don't know who has it right or wrong.  We have been carefully taught by those around us to learn who to fear or hate.    Sad, sad.

[BigSky]

Fear and hate play a very small role in this issue if really any.

Its basis is in the lack of trust Muslims have achieved in this country because of their actions.


Cartoonists depict Mohammad and Muslim terrorists issue death threats.  What do ordinary Muslims do?  They do not protest the terrorists in their own ranks of religion over the matter, they go out and protest the cartoonists.

Muslims are complacent to the growing terrorists in their ranks.  Muslims as a whole do not speak out against terrorist attacks, by their inaction in the matter they are condoning such attacks.  It is the exception to see Muslims speak out against such attacks.

What is the result of this complacency?  You are not trusted and rightly so.

Muslims blame the US for Muslim death even though we bear no responsibility.

Saddam signed a cease fire agreement.  If he failed to abide by the cease fire,  sanctions would be put in place or the war could resume.  Under these sanctions money was to go to the needs of the Iraqi people.  Saddam turned around and diverted nearly all this money to himself and his party and much of the aid that was received was diverted to the black market for cash which was directed to Saddam.

As a result of this hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died.  Saddam was to blame for these deaths, yet many Muslims blame the US for these deaths because of the sanctions.


The same blame goes with Afghanistan. 

The US as policy does not deliberately try to kill innocent civilians.  Al-Qaeda and other Muslim terrorist groups DELIBERATELY attack and kill Muslims and others.

Do Muslims protest them?  No they protest about the US who may have killed Muslims on accident.  Even now they blame us for all the deaths of Muslims despite even if they did not occur at our hands.


Ever wonder why there is only something like 5 Muslim nations in Afghanistan?  Out of those  Turkey has the most troops there because it is a secular nation, the rest of the Muslim nations that are there have either State Religions or are Islamic States and they account for something like 500 troops.


Hamas attacks Israel, Israel responds with force.  What happens, Muslims protest Israel instead of Hamas  who committed the terrorist attacks.

[YLGuy]

Are you an American?

Thomas Jefferson, proclaimed:

    "[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

The Fourteenth Amendment

The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees the religious civil rights.[8] Whereas the First Amendment secures the free exercise of religion, section one of the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion, by securing "the equal protection of the laws" for every person:
“    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

This is about freedom of religion. NOT freedom of your religion.  My son put it best: If you are against this being built then you are NOT a good American.

[glitter]

but is it a good idea? Just because something is legal to do- does not make it a wise choice. If they are going to try to build bridges with people who are not muslims- then why do something that alienates so many?


And where is the public outcry from muslims when extremeists do something? Why is it okay for the mass majority of muslims who you say are peaceful- to say/do nothing?

[BigSky]

Sorry but I have yet to see anyone even claim  freedom of religion applies only to their religion.    Its disingenuous to even suggest such a thing as you have done.

As to your sons statement,  that is false logic.

By that logic we should also honor Islamic honor killings or support that Mormons should be able to once again have more than wife without it being illegal.

[paris]

No fear or hate?   Then maybe ignorance or unwillingness to research and seek higher knowledge?    I know I don't have the answers, so I go to any scholar, theologian, professor, teacher, book, etc that I can find to learn more to be able to have a well rounded opinion.   To have a round table conversation with a Rabbi, a Minister, a Priest, an Imam and others who believe in a higher power, and some who believe in nothing -- those are the moments I can see what we have in common.   I am very fortunate to live in a diverse community and am surrounded by friends and family of almost all faiths.   It helps me be a citizen of the world and not just my corner of the world.    Also, acceptance does not mean condoning the radical terrorists.  But, I can seperate the radicals from the majority. 

Again, when I face God, I can only hope I got this right.  There won't be a second chance!