It took a Britian

[Mimi]

This whole thing is disgusting.  I go with the Britian.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html

[Ken Shelmerdine]

A mosque at ground zero?  totally inappropriate but don't be taken in by Pat Condell's racist rhetoric. This video in typical Pat Condell fashion hi-jacks the single issue of a mosque at ground zero and uses it to justify his vicious anti Muslim diatribe. Unlike what he would have you believe, the majority of muslims in western communities are just as horrified about terrorists atrocities as the rest of us and do not deserve to be tarred with the same brush as the the evil terrorists who perpetrate them.

They want to live in peace and totally reject any notion of Jihad,  Pat Condell exploits any kind of public opinion he can find which reinforces his racist agenda. People like him if the were ever in a time of crisis and social upheaval would make muslime comunities the scapegoats for all social and economical ills of the country. Just as Hitler did with the Jews.

Don't confuse cause with effect. Yes Americans are having their nose rubbed in it by the ground zero project being allowed to go ahead but the biggest mistake you can make is blaming muslims which is exactly what this video is designed to do. Instead blame the cause. Turn your anger on the people it public office who gave permission for it to go ahead in the first place.

[Stoday]

I remember the BBC news of 9/11 and a clip from Bradford in the UK, where it seemed the majority of muslims were dancing in the streets. The fact is, terrorist atrocities are still being carried out in the name of Islam, not any other religion.

You have to go back in history 1000 years before you see another religion terrorising — erm — Muslims. Christianity cleared out its crusading terrorists eventually; when Muslims clear their own religion of this stain, then perhaps, they would merit more tolerence.

[cariad]

I agree with Ken. This is ugly, disgusting racism. I am surprised it took a Brit. We have plenty of these cretins running around our country.

Stoday, much as I respect your intelligence, you are looking at a very narrow view of terrorism, and I suspect you know this. I feel terrorized by any extremists - Fringey, supposedly Christian anti-abortion terrorists, that positively nauseating terrorist Fred Phelps who organizes anti-gay protests at the funerals of gay soldiers, the barking mad paranoids who think Obama is a Muslim, come direct from Kenya to seize their property and put them into 'FEMA labour camps' where we better have bought 'crisis seeds' (this is an actual product advertised on conservative television) or we will starve to death.

I only appreciate religion for its ability to get people through rough times. The rest of it belongs in the tip, in my opinion. I could see a Mosque at Ground Zero doing a lot of good. If you think that ordinary Muslims in this country don't feel marginalised and terrorized, then you have not been paying much attention. Foreigners in general feel terrorized. My first flight after September 11 - one month later - and I went to sit down and the first thing this 80-year-old man in the window-seat said to Gwyn and me was 'I don't look like it, but I'm American.' He was Japanese. Think about what could have possibly motivated this man to blurt this out to total strangers? Gwyn was not even a green-card holder at the time! He experienced no ill-effect from the attack because he is WHITE, whereas a Sikh was murdered after September 11 because one American terrorist was too stupid to know the difference. I tutored a Saudi girl in English in 2002 and she could not wear a black hijab anymore because of the fury in this country directed toward Muslims. I could go on and on, but I am going to stop myself there.

Mimi, could you please not post something anti-Obama in this section when we have a section (that I avoid) to do just that? I happen to be more excited about this president than any other in my lifetime, even Bill Clinton. He has accomplished what everyone else promised but no other president has managed - to address this health care nightmare in our country. I think every American with current or future health problems (all of us, in other words) owes him a huge measure of thanks.

[paris]

The site isn't on Ground Zero, but a couple of blocks away.  There are also many "peep shows', adult stores, booking sites, etc in the 2 or 3 block area around Ground Zero.   Freedom of religion.  Our forefathers spelled it out for us.   If you have ever been in New York City, you would see that something even a block away from the site would not effect anyone.  I have been there many times pre and post 9/11 and can't tell you any one store, church, or business directly around that site.  I can't blame an entire group of people for the sins of a very few.     Just my     and I will slowly back away from this.   

If this is a political discussion, it will be moved to the political thread so those who don't want to read it, can avoid it.

paris, Moderator

[mogee]

The proposed mosque is a test of both America and Islam.  If America lives up to its advertising, of not establishing or repressing any religion, it will allow the mosque to be built and it will be a symbol of American freedom and tolerance.  The complete disconnect between the state and any form of religion is one of America's greatest strengths, and it should not be corrupted.  Unsurprisingly, those most vocal in their condemnation of the proposed mosque also insist that Christianity deserves a greater role in the public square.

For Islam, the test is trickier.  If it is business as usual within the masjid, it would expose Islam as insensitive and a willing tool of terrorists.  In some way, the mosque must condemn the 9/11 plotters and their like, and honour the victims of senseless terror.  The WTC destruction was a traumatic blow for all Americans, even those who submit to the Koranic faith, and a place of worship so close to ground zero cannot ignore the significance of its locale.  Unlike the Catholic Church which built a convent at the edge of Aushwitz, I'm hoping American Moslems can distinguish respectful conduct from boorish behaviour.

[Mimi]

Caraid I did not post this thinking of Obama.  I posted it thinking of the 3,000 people who died on 9/11
and their families.

[Ken Shelmerdine]

Mogee I think you have focused on what should be the real issue here, that of mutual respect for all religious beliefs and the sensitivities of their followers. Although In this instance I believe that to site a mosque in the close vicinity of ground zero is very insensitive to the memory of victims and the feelings of their families.

That and that only. I do not agree with it but I respect and defend their right to do it as in both Britain and the United States our right to religious and political freedom is enshrined by law and long may this be so.

I just can't understand the naivety of the powers that be who made this decision. It surely gave the jihad watch lunatics and Muslim bashers  the excuse to make a racist issue about it. 

[paul.karen]

Thanks for posting this Mimi.
I think the man made much sense as do the vast majority of Americans who dont think this is the place to build a mosque.


Not sure what it has to do with Obama? 

[cariad]

Paul and Mimi, it says right at the top of the vid "The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War Against America" a statement that all who watch this video would be staring at for the full 6 minutes of Condell's off-the-rails diatribe. I'd love to know, Paul, where you get your data that tell you that "the vast majority of Americans" agree with you, as no one I know personally does in the least. Mimi, I'm sure you were thinking of the people that died on 9/11, what about the 80-90 of those who were Muslims? What about the thousands upon thousands of veterans who have experienced real war and would, if they are anything like me, take great offensive to having a presidency in a country famous for its 'checks and balances' compared to living under war. If you are going to call the Obama administration's actions acts of war, we may as well chuck the entire English language because that is sheer lunacy.

I don't hold 9/11 in such holy stead that the victims and their families should overtake all other considerations in this country, especially not THE FIRST AMENDMENT of our Constitution. What ideal world do you envision? An invisible barrier where no one who is Muslim is allowed to build within a certain zone in NYC? Where does it end? The terrorists were not attacking Christianity, nor even Judaism, they were attacking what they see as the seat of Western imperialism, which is why their targets tend to be politically and financially symbolic, and not religiously so.

I agree with Mogee in that it could become an inspiring symbol of tolerance. Not to say that it will, because these things can always be mucked up beyond recognition.

Thank you for your thoughts, Paris, especially this:

I can't blame an entire group of people for the sins of a very few.

I was hoping that I was not the only one on IHD who felt this way.

[paul.karen]

Firstly i didnt notice that bit about Obama until you pointed it out.

And where do i get my facts.  From Democratic leader Reid.  And polls taken by MSNBC CNN FOX.  I know many liberals opps sorry progressives who dont agree with this mosque being built where it is.  Not to mention there are over 1000 mosques in NY.

This tolerant person who wants to build bridges.  How much of his reading and interviews have you read?

here is a snippet.
From Feisal Abdul Rauf--first a Little about Raul
He is the founder of park51 the so called ground zero cultural center.
This is a man who will not refuses to describe Hammas as a terrorist group although the state department consides them a terrorist group.  Funny how the state department considers them a terrorist group.  And it just so happens Rauf is the state departments own (Ambassador) to Islamic nations.

Needless in an interview with Hadielisam.com Rauf reveals his ultimate goals.
He wants to incrementally establish what he calls the original Islamic state worldwide as it once was in Arabia.
This consists of the principals of Sharia law IE Islamic law, which allows for the stoning death of adulterers and the decapitation of Muslims who convert to another faith

Now we debate among ourselves trying to persuade each other we arnt intolerant or anti-muslim.  But those who would create more ground zeros are not debating.  The think they have Allah on there side and MARTYRDOM and heaven is there goal.
Tell me how does one be them secular-christian-catholic or jewish negotiate with such a mind set??

At the dinner where obama stated he was for the mosque (in principal) was Saudi cleric Muhammad al-arifi  Who last July 19th stated on al-rahma tv.

Devotion to Jihad for the sake of Allah and the desire to smash skulls and to sever limbs for the sake of Allah and in defense of his religion is undoubtedly an honor for the believer. Decleared the cleric.

Now i am sure this cleric will be at the new mosque to spread his word and wisdom to his fellow believers.  many are OK with that right?  And your OK with a radical cleric running the mosque because after all they are but misunderstood.

Needless he went on to say in his interview:

The Koranic versus that deal with fighting the infidels (that us westerners and Americans) and conquering there countires say that they should convert to Islam, pay thejizya poll tax or be KILLED.  if the Muslims had implemented this we would not have reached the humiliation in which we find ourselves today.

This is reality not wishful thinking.

Dont get me wrong there are many MANY GOOD Muslims around the world.  But lets not forget there are also many MANY jihads, militants who twist the word of the Koran for there own wicked goals. 

Just so happens the ones who want the mosque built nest to ground zero are part of the bad guys.  For if they were the good Muslims like the ones who died on 9/11 (not the hijackers) they would understand the sentiment behind so many people against building the mosque where the radical Iman and others mentioned above want it built.  It is but to laugh at the infidels stupidity.

[cariad]

Paul, you need to credit your sources, especially if you are going to do little more than paraphrase a Cal Thomas editorial from the Washington Examiner. Otherwise, we're in plagiarism territory.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Concerns-about-Ground-Zero-mosque-are-valid-499953-100808959.html

The Examiner, according to Wikipedia, was founded by its owner to offer "nothing but conservative columns and conservative op-ed writers". Need you really ask what Obama has to do with this? One of their writers wrote a book "The Case Against Barack Obama". Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me that you honestly believe that this has nothing to do with the conservative (The Party of Hell No, by their own admission) drive to defeat Obama at any cost, even the cost of their ethics and their sworn duty to govern this country. Oh, and I proudly wear the label liberal, so absolutely no need for cutesy, faux apologies. Call me a liberal to your heart's content, or a progressive, I identify as both. I secretly wish I were more liberal (well, not secretly anymore). Tolerance, especially when I disagree with someone over something fundamental to my life, is an art and I would love to be even more accomplished at it.

I don't think there is much doubt that Rauf is considered a moderate Muslim. How many of his writings have you read?

If you wanted to actually engage in a debate with me about this Islamic Centre, you would have done well to stray from the arch-conservative sphere to make your point. Apparently, the decidedly liberal Anti-Defamation League opposes this Mosque. This is far more interesting to me. I think most of us know before anyone opens their mouths who will fall on what side of these issues. The ADL was a surprise to me, and got my attention much more than the shameless liars on the extreme right, however, I believe the ADL was created to fight anti-semitism (an issue close to my heart if only for my relatives). I think this speaks more to the current state of Jewish/Islamic relations and in the end proves the need for structures/symbols/whatever the promote tolerance. I disagree with the ADL on this. I disagree with Harry Reid. I disagree with Barack Obama occasionally.

I could find no confirmation that that other cleric was at any dinner for the White House. Where did you read this? Where on earth did I write that I was OK with a radical cleric running any Mosque? I disagree with you that Rauf is a radical cleric. And the other cleric you mention, where is it stated that he would be running this?

I am trying not to "get you wrong" Paul, but you are making it difficult. I would like to say that I do completely respect your ability to leave debates behind and step up and support people on this site, regardless of political arguments, as we all battle renal failure. That is the essence of cool, at least in my estimation.

 

[BigSky]

There was nothing racist about the video.
 
Muslims as a whole have been silent about what happened on 9/11 as well as various other terrorist attacks on the US as well as other countries.  There are a few that speak out against such stuff, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Also America does not have to let this building be built and it still lives up to its advertising of religious freedom.

America has long held one has rights, but they do not get to hide behind those rights. 

Mormons religious views were they could marry more than one wife, when they came into the Union, the Mormon Church had to speak out against bigamy.

At no point does any rational person claim that America was suppressing religious freedom.

Just like when courts ruled that muslim women cannot wear a hijab in drivers license photos.  Only the irrational claimed it was an suppression of religion.

[Stoday]

The complete disconnect between the state and any form of religion is one of America's greatest strengths

Erm — Take any dollar bill from your wallet and look on the reverse.

Fair comment concerning terrorism definition, cariad, I was aiming to juxtapose the Muslim and Christian religions. That terrorism was on a large international scale and I didn't want to cloud the argument by including minor acts such as that against Britain on the formation of Israel in the 1940's.

America is both a Christian and a tolerant country; I would hope it remains so. Islam is the antithesis of tolerance. The question is, will America's tolerance be enhanced by allowing the growing encroachment of an intolerant enclave? I think not; a truly tolerant America should excise pockets of intolerance.

Compare another religious group, Judism. Jews have integrated with society, are tolerant of other religions and pose no threat. Even in the days of terrorism against the British it would have been inconceivable to prevent them building a synagogue wherever they wanted in London. The difference between the acceptability of religious buildings between the two is tolerance.

[texasstyle]

I would love to say in my heart of hearts, that not all Muslim people are extremists. The truth is, I hardly know anything about the religon. But I do know that building a Mosque at or near that site would incite a voilent backlash. I think we're still hurting deeply from what happend. Angry hearts find it hard to forgive. Personally I say no to it. I'm one that still has an angry heart. I'm sorry to say that but it's the truth. I can still the video of Bin Laden laughing as the towers went down. Racist? Maybe. Angry? Yes. I just hope that the people going into that Mosque aren't praying for another 9-11.

[Riki]

Not being American, or Muslim (I don't consider myself Christian either, for that matter), perhaps I have no right to say anything, but I do have to point a few things out..

1. It's not a Mosque. It's a community center that just happens to be funded and run by an Imam.  It's to have a culinary school, a basketball court, and a pool, and will be open to the public.

2.  It's not at Ground Zero.  It's one and a half blocks away, and you won't even be able to see it if you go to Ground Zero, unless you happen to wander away.

3.  There is a church across the street from the Ground Zero site, and others in the same 1 and a half block radius of the Ground Zero site, so the argument that there shouldn't be any religious sites around the area doesn't hold water.

4.  There is a Mosque at the Pentagon, where people also died on 9/11.  Where are the protests for that Mosque?  Why is it appropriate and this community center not appropriate?

If America was built on religious freedom and tolerance, I'm not seeing it now.  It was Al-Qaeda who attacked the United States, not Islam.  Al-Qaeda are extremists in the Muslim faith, the same as Fred Phelps and his "church" are extremists in the Christian faith.

[paul.karen]

Cariad i did paraphrase because i agree with the points i pointed out.  But im no plagiarist just a guy in a little debate which in all honesty i care less about.  I just like to add my own thoughts and two cents in certain postings.

I read an article in my local paper that i re-looked at again today and yes it was written by carl thomas.  Who i have never heard off until just now.  I have stated this before and ill state it again.  Anyone can find information to disagree with anyone else on the internet. It is a big back and forth.  This is why i generally dont use quotes or cut and paste i just speak my mind.  But again i thought the topic fit so i paraphrased. 

You keep bringing Obama up?  I havnt mentioned him (i dont think).  I dont read books that are negatives about Obama.  I have plenty of my own reasons for not liking Obama.  But if i state them i am labeled a racist for some reason.  You either agree with obama or your a racist some how.  If anyhting i am an independent who follows my own heart and gut.  I mean in all reality i didnt go to a racist church for 20 years and use a racist priest as a confident.

Things happen whether we like it or not.  The mosque will be what it will be.  Built or not built.  The people voices generally are not heard needless if they are for or against any issue. The all mighty government does what it does. (not that this is a government issue)
I just dont think that is the right place to put up a Islamic center or mosque.  IMO

But thank you for pointing out that many here can totaly disagree in many matters be it politics or any other issue.  But when all the chips fall we are here for one common goal which is to help each other in our fight with ESRD.  Many times people cant distinguish we are all different yet we can leave one thread and hold no ill feelings towards people we may disagree with in a different thread.

[cariad]

Paul, just a few more things and then I really want to leave this discussion, because like you, it is not a big issue with me. I live nowhere near New York City, have no immediate plans to go there (I did live there for a year a long time ago and don't really like revisiting old times), and do not feel the deep connection toward the World Trade Center events that so many others do. Perhaps if it had happened in San Francisco (this was a concern for a brief time) or Wales, I would feel differently. I remember confiding in one of Gwyn's English friends that I did not feel I was at all involved in this and he replied "Oh, you're involved" as if ordering me to feel something that was not there. My heart breaks for anyone who had to go through those horrors, but I just cannot bring myself to see them as more sacrosanct than the tragedies that others live through. And that, of course, is only my personal feeling and one that I have never been able to articulate correctly.

You have mentioned Obama twice in this discussion - first by asking what he had to do with it (in response to my comment) and second in your paraphrasing (reread it). You wrote:

At the dinner where obama stated he was for the mosque (in principal) was Saudi cleric Muhammad al-arifi

Perhaps you can find "information to disagree with anyone else on the internet" but that is not technically information, just lies. A discussion with no good faith on the part of everyone involved that we will all strive for accuracy is pointless. Muhammad al-arifi was not at a dinner with Obama. I don't think he is even in America, but I cannot tell because there is very little information about him, just endless repetition of those quotes you posted. I really admire this president, as I stated, and I will defend him against outright falsehoods.

I respect anyone's rational disagreement with Obama, or just not liking someone for whatever reason - certainly a right I have exercised on many an occasion.

Stoday, your comments remind me of Christopher Hitchens. I have read a fair number of his essays concerning Islam (and Christianity - he dislikes both). He and Salman Rushdie believe that Islam is a perpetual danger to world peace, and some of their arguments are quite compelling. US Muslims tend to be very moderate, though. I'm sure if I were Salman Rushdie, I'd carry a grudge for life....

[mogee]

Not being American, or Muslim (I don't consider myself Christian either, for that matter), perhaps I have no right to say anything, but I do have to point a few things out..

1. It's not a Mosque. It's a community center that just happens to be funded and run by an Imam.  It's to have a culinary school, a basketball court, and a pool, and will be open to the public.

It certainly is a mosque in addition to the other uses listed.  It is impossible to imagine an Islamic centre without a place of worship.  Muslims are called to prayer five times daily and therefore require places of worship wherever they work, study and live.  Although it will be "open to the public" it is doubtful that any non-Muslims will use the facility.  The culinary school will teach the practices of halal and the pool will be for gender-exclusive use, one of the few places in Manhattan where Muslim women can swim.

One very odd aspect of this controversy is the silence from the Muslim community.  At the very least I would expect the Cordoba group to state their position publicly and deny that they are erecting a victory marker where smoke and cinders once filled the street.  If Americans are ever going to view Islam as anything other than a terror cult, Muslims must raise their voices and affirm their commitment to America's pluralistic and open society.  The project developer's silence raises the suspicion that he believes, like so many other Muslims, that the attack on the WTC was America's just dessert.

[YLGuy]

My son was just assigned to do a paper on propaganda for college.  He chose this subject.  He put it very bluntly to me.  If you are against this being built you are not a good American.  America is about freedom of religion.  Not freedom of your religion.  It is also about capitalism.  They are going to spend a lot of money to have this built.

The piece of propaganda we chose to comment on is an ad ran by a group of Republicans in response to a mosque that is proposed to be built near Ground Zero. The video opens with the words “The Audacity of Jihad” with Middle Eastern style chanting, followed by footage of what appears to be guerilla forces training in the Middle East. It then shows the footage of the 9/11 attacks followed by pictures of dancing Muslims. The announcer says, “On September 11th they declared war against us, and to celebrate that murder of 3,000 Americans they want to build a monstrous 13 story mosque at ground zero.” The ad then shows a side by side of a man wrapped in an American flag and dancing Muslims. The announcer says, “Where we weep, they rejoice. That mosque is a monument to their victory-and an invitation for more [attacks].” The ad then shows a picture of President Obama and the white house followed by the words “The politicians are doing nothing to stop it, but we Americans will be heard.” The ad closes by asking the viewer to “Join the fight” to stop the mosque from being built.
   This ad is a very good example of propaganda. This ad uses many emotional appeals to influence the audience. They use images such as the 9/11 attacks, the wreckage at Ground Zero and numerous American flags to try to appeal to American patriotism. They also try to use fear by showing depictions of armed Islamic terrorists and by saying that the mosque is an invitation for more attacks. This ad makes a couple of logical fallacies. The biggest one is suppressed info, because the ad does not mention anything reasonable about the opposing side and actually lies about their position throughout. This mosque is not located at ground zero but is actually about 2 blocks away. The ad also claims that the mosque is being built as a monument to Islamic victory when it is actually being used as a cultural outreach center, to show that not all Muslims follow the extremist viewpoints of the religion. A part-whole fallacy is used by assuming that every Muslim believes in the extremist interpretation of the religion and that they supported the attack that occurred on 9/11. There is also a slippery slope fallacy by assuming that all Muslims are responsible for and enjoyed the attacks on 9/11. This is not true at all of course, many American Muslims who lived in New York died in the attacks on 9/11. There is a false cause fallacy because the ad assumes that because the mosque is being built near ground zero, it is supposed to be a symbol of victory over America. Appeal to pity is used by saying that the people in charge are doing nothing to prevent this mosque from being built, making the people who oppose it the underdogs. We also believe that put-downs are being used because whenever the opposition was talked about there would be pictures of terrorists shown. This is basically calling the people who plan to build the mosque Muslim terrorists. Overall this ad is a perfect example of propaganda because it tries to use emotional appeals and fallacious arguments to turn public opinion against the building of this mosque.
 

[Riki]

After 9/11, a group of Muslims who had a Mosque in NYC near the WTC, and were there before the WTC was even built, were evicted from their building.  Where they worship now is not big enough for them.  There will be prayer space in this community center, but calling it a mosque would be the same as calling a hospital a church because it has a chapel in it.

[paris]

There is a prayer room in the Pentagon for the Muslims.   Why aren't people outraged about that?      Help me --- I jumped back into this conversation!   I am leaving now.   

YLGuy, you have raised an incredible son.  He seems to be informed and open minded.  He is right about being a good American. 

One more note, we have Muslims friends and they do not associate their religion with the terriosts religion.  Their wish is that others could see there is a huge difference.  I was talking with a girl today from Pakistan.  I keep trying to learn all I can about other religions so I can base my feelings on facts not fear. 

[BigSky]

Not being American, or Muslim (I don't consider myself Christian either, for that matter), perhaps I have no right to say anything, but I do have to point a few things out..


4.  There is a Mosque at the Pentagon, where people also died on 9/11.  Where are the protests for that Mosque?  Why is it appropriate and this community center not appropriate?

Sorry there is no Mosque at the Pentagon, that was a fabrication by a Salon writer in the title of an article that has been hyped ever since.


This is all being done under the idea of a stealth jihad.

They get people to side with them under the guise of they are  doing nothing wrong and that Islam is a peaceful religion.  The idea of it being peaceful holds true mainly only to those Muslims that are Westernized and those that come here and consider this their country and hold allegiance to it.

While there are a number of Muslims in the US that are Westernized and indeed believe in live and let live, many  of the Muslims in this country are not westernized and in fact hold more allegiance to their homelands than they do to the US.  You even have a number of Muslims that were born here but hold the US in contempt and they have more allegiance to their parents homeland.  Many of these types sympathize with the terrorists groups much in the same way that Neo Nazi groups sympathize with Hitler, except in this case instead of being very much vocal like Neo Nazi groups, they are silent and funnel money back to these terrorist groups.



The idea of this type of jihad is to destroy the US and western countries from within. 

Their goal is to get sharia law in the US and other countries. 

It starts by them claiming they need accommodations for their religion.  ex.  Muslim women should get to wear their hijab in schools or in drivers license pictures or at places of employment.

Even most recently a school in Michigan changed football practice to 11pm to 4 am so Muslims could follow Ramadan.    This is clearly a violation of the Separation of Church and State clause of the Constitution.

Groups like the ACLU and other liberal groups howl like stuck pigs when Christians try to have a prayer before games and such, but they remain silent on this issue of government endorsement of a religion in this case. 

All done in the name of them straining trying to be pc.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B1FHeIP53Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5BPVF1C5LE

[mogee]

The ad also claims that the mosque is being built as a monument to Islamic victory when it is actually being used as a cultural outreach center, to show that not all Muslims follow the extremist viewpoints of the religion.

Are you making this up or do you actually have a public statement from the Cordoba group to justify your assertion?  Muslims are not interested in "cultural outreach".  If they were, they would have issued a clear and unequivocal statement long before this matter gathered national attention.  In my opinion, the Muslims who are most devout are likeliest to regard America as the great Satan and have contempt for western values.  Muslims who defend our open society, authors like Irshad Manji and Tarek Fatah are denounced as apostates and subject to harassment and threats of death.  Islam, in addition to being an expression of faith and spirituality, is a complete code of living meant to closely govern individuals, communities and nations.  It is fundamentally at loggerheads with the American values of personal autonomy, official secularism and liaise faire liberalism.  America may be strong enough, brave enough and fair enough to embrace Muslims as fully enfranchised citizens, but Islam will never respect or tolerate American values.

It is always worthwhile to expose propaganda and rhetoric for the illusions they convey and the base motives behind them, but YLGuy has perpetrated a fallacy of his own; he has dismissed the fact that Islamic and American values are fundamentally incompatible.

[Riki]

Do you know any Muslims? or are you just listening to the crap that is being spewed by those trying to destract Americans from the real issues that the country faces, like the economy.

Where I live, there is a large Lebanese community.  Many are Christian, and came here fleeing religious persecution.  However, there are also many Muslims who have come here as well.  What is amazing, is that those who would kill each other in Lebanon because of their religions come together here, every year, and throw a great big friggin party with lots of Lebanese food and belly dancers.  The Christian and Muslim Lebanese get along.  Says very little for Americans.