Obama = Downfall of America

[Bill Peckham]

Really? The Department of Homeland Security report? You're saying that DHS report is worse than the language being used in opposition to health insurance reform?

That report is looking prescient.

Ohh I have no doubt you feel that way.  I know it must scare the hell out of you that the American People are standing up and using their Constitutional Rights on this issue.

 

Political violence is not a constitutional right. The DHS threat projection said "White supremacists and militias are more violent and thus more likely to conduct mass-casualty attacks on the scale of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing," that's not their Constitutional right.

"All it's lacking is a spark,"

It's a dangerous game to create a situation that some Federal FUBAR operation (Wacko, Ruby Ridge) can spark a mass casualty event against Americans caused by Americans.

[BigSky]

Political violence is not a constitutional right. The DHS threat projection said "White supremacists and militias are more violent and thus more likely to conduct mass-casualty attacks on the scale of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing," that's not their Constitutional right.

"All it's lacking is a spark,"

The report said far more than just that and labeled millions of American as terrorists for their beliefs.

It's a dangerous game to create a situation that some Federal FUBAR operation (Wacko, Ruby Ridge) can spark a mass casualty event against Americans caused by Americans.

It was the government who set forth the dangerous operations that ended in the result of OKC, not the militias.

[Bill Peckham]

Whatever happens, if something else happens, I'm sure you'll say the government (or the assassinated person e.g. Tiller) deserved it this time too.

[BigSky]

Whatever happens, if the government violates Constitutional Rights and goes out and kills innocent citizens, I am sure you will blame those the government killed bill.

[Hanify]

Whatever happens, if the government violates Constitutional Rights and goes out and kills innocent citizens, I am sure you will blame those the government killed bill.

But it's OK if they're not American citizens?

[BigSky]

But it's OK if they're not American citizens?

You tell me since its an open ended statement.

[Hanify]

I've become confused about who thinks what in this argument...I was only trying to make the point that American's always seem to get up in arms about constitutional rights, but are only bothered about the US constitutional rights.  Not so worried about the rights of citizens in other countries.

[glitter]

I've become confused about who thinks what in this argument...I was only trying to make the point that American's always seem to get up in arms about constitutional rights, but are only bothered about the US constitutional rights.  Not so worried about the rights of citizens in other countries.

 You often post with a similar vein of distaste for my country, and this post is very vague and unspecific towards whatever policy you are speaking of. Its just negative.

[okarol]

I've become confused about who thinks what in this argument...I was only trying to make the point that American's always seem to get up in arms about constitutional rights, but are only bothered about the US constitutional rights.  Not so worried about the rights of citizens in other countries.

America fights battles to protect the rights of other countries all over the world.

[Hanify]

 You often post with a similar vein of distaste for my country, and this post is very vague and unspecific towards whatever policy you are speaking of. Its just negative.

Do you truly mean this Glitter?  OMG I didn't realise that's how I come across.  It's absolutely not my intention at all!  I'm astounded that you think I'm negative to the US.  I'll have to have a real think about how I phrase things.  I love America.  I love that you're all so patriotic (we don't do the patriotism thing so much), but I meant my question  as one to make you all think about how it must be perceived when you go to war with someone else.  If the situations were reversed and America was Iraq, wouldn't you feel that your constitutional rights had been trampled?



EDITED: Fixed quote tag - okarol/admin

[BigSky]

Not sure comparing a dictatorship to a society that openly elects a leader is a proper comparison.

Iraq wasnt exactly know for having Constitutional Rights.

Unless you consider execution for speaking out against Saddam a Constitutional Right.

[Hanify]

They have constitutional rights - they're just not the same as ours.  We're still trampling them when we go into a country and insist that things are done a certain way.  It's a difficult question of course, cos how much should you let be, and where do you draw the line.  Sorry - I've made this get off topic.  Back to Obama....

[BigSky]

They have constitutional rights - they're just not the same as ours.  We're still trampling them when we go into a country and insist that things are done a certain way.  It's a difficult question of course, cos how much should you let be, and where do you draw the line.  Sorry - I've made this get off topic.  Back to Obama....

That is what happens when you break a cease fire.

[aharris2]

I've become confused about who thinks what in this argument...I was only trying to make the point that American's always seem to get up in arms about constitutional rights, but are only bothered about the US constitutional rights.  Not so worried about the rights of citizens in other countries.

I find it interesting to see where these threads go.

Hanify, I don't see you as negative to the US. Rather, I see you accurately stating a negative fact about the US.

Yes, we have a long history of trampling all over what I see as the rights of others. As a US citizen, one has rights "guaranteed" by the Constitution. If you are a noncitizen living here, you have no such protections. If you are another nation who has something we want, well then God help you. (Canada, watch out! Someday we're coming for your water.)

'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all "men" are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights...'

To me, all means all, not just US citizens. But it seems we were just kidding.

[Jie]

Return to the topics. Did downfall of America start from Bush or Obama? For the conservative republicans here, were you happy under Bush administration during the last eight years? I don't like "tax and spend" approach, but I hate "deficit and spend" even more.

[Jean]

Here is a burning question for those of you who are so very good at looking things up. Legal aliens who are elderly come in to this country and immediately receive benefits thru Social Security. If they live in Ca., since they are also considered "poor" they also receive medical care for free. I was told by one person who was running as a city councilman, that that money comes from the "welfare" part of Social Security. What??? I am not a foreigner basher, but if the kids want to bring Grandma here, shouldnt they carry some of the burden of her care? I knew one family who drew close to $2000.00 per month, tax free and never paid one dime into our system. No wonder they are running out of money.

[BigSky]

I've become confused about who thinks what in this argument...I was only trying to make the point that American's always seem to get up in arms about constitutional rights, but are only bothered about the US constitutional rights.  Not so worried about the rights of citizens in other countries.

I find it interesting to see where these threads go.

Hanify, I don't see you as negative to the US. Rather, I see you accurately stating a negative fact about the US.

Yes, we have a long history of trampling all over what I see as the rights of others. As a US citizen, one has rights "guaranteed" by the Constitution. If you are a noncitizen living here, you have no such protections. If you are another nation who has something we want, well then God help you. (Canada, watch out! Someday we're coming for your water.)

'We hold these truths to be self evident, that all "men" are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights...'

To me, all means all, not just US citizens. But it seems we were just kidding.

That is untrue.  The fundamental civil liberties of the Constitution also apply to non citizens.  There are certain things non citizens have no right to and that was set forth by due process as required by the Constitution.

[Bill Peckham]

Here is a burning question for those of you who are so very good at looking things up. Legal aliens who are elderly come in to this country and immediately receive benefits thru Social Security. If they live in Ca., since they are also considered "poor" they also receive medical care for free. I was told by one person who was running as a city councilman, that that money comes from the "welfare" part of Social Security. What??? I am not a foreigner basher, but if the kids want to bring Grandma here, shouldnt they carry some of the burden of her care? I knew one family who drew close to $2000.00 per month, tax free and never paid one dime into our system. No wonder they are running out of money.

You have to pay into Social Security for enough quarters to be entitled to benefits. If people haven't worked here or if they worked but did not pay into Social Security and Medicare then they can not receive benefits.

Medicaid is a different story. Medicaid, in California I think it's called MediCal, might cover someone no matter what their residency status. Tht is a state issue.

If you knew a family drawing 2K a month from Social Security that never paid into he system then you knew a family that was committing fraud.

[BigSky]

I think you mistook what Jean said Bill.

I believe Jean is referring to SSI when she said they got benefits through Social Security.

Social Security runs the SSI program and one doesnt need to pay into anything to get it.  So they could come here and get these SSI benefits through Social Security.

If on SSI there is a rule where people can get an automatic qualification to receive free Medicaid plus some States even supplement the SSI check.

[Jean]

Big Sky, that is correct. However, it used to be that if a family brought their elders here, they supported them. That is no longer true. I worked in assisted housing for 15 years, and saw the money they got. The one who drew close to $2000.00 per month was a man who married a woman who had, we think, about 15 children. And then, of course, he had a bad back. Hence this pocket load of money, since, even tho the kids were mostly over 18 never worked. There was one elderly woman who was told she did not qualify, so she appeared in public nude, and then did qualify. I have nothing against foreigners if they are legal, but I still dont know who is paying out this money, since they do get a benefits letter from Social Security at the end of the year, the same as we do.

[Hanify]

It's a big issue, but when it comes down to it I think it shows that you have a society that is unwilling to allow human beings to be treated badly - no matter their situation.  There's huge costs involved, but do you really want a country that would allow people to die because they were illegal immigrants?  That's the kind of thing we look down on in other countries isn't it?  What worries me more is the amount of money it takes to provide care.  I mean, there's some really awful statistic that says it takes $10 to provide $1 of care.  That's where I think the savings could be made.

[Jean]

Hanify, I do agree with you, it is the humanitarian thing to do and that is what America is all about. However, if Soc.Sec. is now going broke, wouldn't that be a part of the reason? They never pay in, but they collect for many many years. And that is hardly fair to those of us who worked our whole lives. Most of it is fraud, and evidently, there is no way to stop it. It just irritates the poop out of me to watch these people collect free money, sleep until noon, and then go out for dinner, and I can't do that all the time. WTH??

[Wallyz]

Social Security is not in danger of going broke anytime soon.  Medicare is because the cost of the program has risen faster than originally estimated, and raising medicare withholding is politically unpopular. Some covered conditions, like ESRD, have increased faster than the workforce has, as well as live expectancy past the eligibility age.

The fix is to raise the age of eligibility , or to increase withholding.  That's probably not going to happen.

[monrein]

Here is an article discussing some points of the Canadian system.  One thing that is not well addressed is that of drugs.  In Ontario we have a program (Trillium Drug) that subsidized drug costs based on income.  As a transplant patient I certainly qualify but if I make tons of money (or my husband does) then my quarterly deduction is way higher than someone who makes very little. 

Our system is not perfect, there are cracks, there are things that need to be addressed, changed, tinkered with, but from all I've read I see no perfection in the current US system either.  BTW we used to operate in a very similar fashion to the US until Tommy Douglas came along.

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/health-care-abroad-canada/

[Jie]

It is not that easy for a non-contributed person to get social security benefits. Both social security retirement benefits and disability benefits all require work credits. What other benefits one can get from social security besides retirement benefits and disability benefits?

So far I heard here is SSI. What is SSI? Please read this from the social security web site:
"Supplemental Security Income (SSI) is a Federal income supplement program funded by general tax revenues (not Social Security taxes):
It is designed to help aged, blind, and disabled people, who have little or no income; and
 It provides cash to meet basic needs for food, clothing, and shelter. "

So, SSI is not taking any money from social security.

For medicaid, I have seen some U.S. citizens who are very sick and with little money cannot get it. It may be a little easier for a poor woman with youth kids. But it is not for everyone.

I know it is easier to blame others in poor economic conditions.  It is not a reason for social security collapse, if it does someday.