Is Quitting Dialysis Suicide

[Hanify]

Also, it's not the same as refusing chemo if you have cancer.  I have cancer and have to do chemo, but there are no definite outcomes for chemo.  Most people do chemo, knowing that the treatment itself is hell, but knowing also there's no guarantee it'll work.  Dialysis does work - it's just a pain the in a...So I see it as quite different to making a decision not to go through chemo.  Tinah, I hate to think about you feeling depressed about it - I hope you also read some upbeat posts too, and realise that living on dialysis can be a positive thing too.  We all wouldn't know each other if we didn't.

[cedar]

I agree with Hanify's post.   

[MandaMe1986]

You always have a choice, and you know when it is time to stop. 

[hurlock1]

I don't exactly know what this discussion is about. But, my wife's an RN, She makes good money. We have a fairly good life style. Bue she gambles. Every payperiod we are in the red in our bank account. She is 57. Retirement isn't too far around the corner. We live in a fairly nice Mobile home, which is paid for, but we live in a trailer park and it costs about $500 a month. My wife is otherwise a lovely person besides the uncontrollable gambling. She doesn't go to win, She goes to play. IF it doesn't cease, we are gonna be homeless. (I don't really know what else there is) I am worried about this. If that occurs, I won't want to carry on. I will have had enough. I love my wife. But if we become homeless because of her gambling, I'l just have to leave her to face life on her own.

[paris]

The discussion is if you think quiting dialysis is the same as committing suicide.   Do you think a dialysis patient has the right to stop treatments if he feels his life is not worth living?  Lots of different opinions here.

[Hanify]

My husband wanted to put another point of view forward.  He says that if he stopped me from doing my dialysis it should and would be considered murder wouldn't it?  So therefore, why should he be charged for murder if I'm not going to be 'charged' (for want of a better word) with suicide?  Maybe the issue is actually our reaction to the word suicide?

[BigSky]

My husband wanted to put another point of view forward.  He says that if he stopped me from doing my dialysis it should and would be considered murder wouldn't it?  So therefore, why should he be charged for murder if I'm not going to be 'charged' (for want of a better word) with suicide?  Maybe the issue is actually our reaction to the word suicide?

There are different rules to someone killing someone else,  someone intentionally taking their own life before its natural time to pass and that of someone letting nature take its course.

 

[bette1]

I think quitting dilaysis is suicide.  It is witholding a life sustaining need from your body.  In my mind starving oneself is suicide as well.  I also belive that if a person does not wish to live that they should have the right to end their lives with dignity. 

[TiffanyJean]

Ok I've got a bit of a unique opinion on this... I think.

Firstly I voted No - I don't think it's suicide. Here's why:

When Richie was first diagnosed with ESRD (while in the hospital) we were given the choice to start dialysis or not. Our doctor presented us with the facts and said we would need to make the decision by the end of the day. Richie's mom's mom (Richie's grandma - who died when his mom was 16) had done dialysis (she was sick by something - i cant think of what it was) towards the end and it was painful for the whole family to watch her suffer; so his mom really didn't want Richie to go on. The only way he would stay alive was on dialysis. The answer was obvious to me - of course he would go on dialysis. He was a little hesitant, but he decided to do it. When Richie started in the clinic, our social worker Lynn (we love her shes like an aunt to us) one of the first things she told us was he has the choice to stop treatment at any time for any reason - no questions asked. My response was 'doesn't he need this to live?' and she replied 'yes - but its every patients choice to stop treatment, no matter what the circumstances.'

Dialysis is an option, its one that keeps my best friend, husband and love of my life - in my life - for which i am so grateful. At this time if he came and said that he wanted to quit (which he has said half heartedly - especially when he was doing in clinic HD) i would plead with him and probably force him to go. We are only 25 (will be 26 this year), we have only been married for 1 1/2 years. Now if many years down the road, and he is back on dialysis and we are old and gray, and he wanted to quit. That is his choice and if he just couldn't take it any more, then it would be ok.

Now I saw alot of people comment on what if a cancer patient chose not to do chemo - well my grandmother did. When she was first diagnosed with breast cancer, she did all the necessary treatments, including having a double mastectomy. She was cancer free for 5 1/2 years. then she had a fall, and they found it in her spine - to start. It was quickly spreading throughout her body. She was given the choice to try treatments or not. She didn't. She went home and lived the last 3 1/2 months of her life doing as much as she could. the last 1/2 she had become a frail body that was all skin and bones. she had to have a nurse to help care for her - bathe her, change her diaper, and anything else that needed to be done. She was on a hospital bed in the front room. it was hard to watch her, and at the time i didn't understand why she would choose to let her life just go away; but her life would have been just as bad just much sooner.

Choosing to let nature take its course - is not suicide. Medical professionals are not allowed to take a patients life, thats why patients are given a choice to sign a "DNR", thats why we were given the choice to start dialysis, and why when he started HD he was told he had the choice to stop treatments, and why my grandmother was given the choice to get treatments for her cancer.

Now when i was growing up my life was tough, we didn't have a lot of money after my parents got divorced, when you look up the definition of 'dead beat dad' my birth father's picture would be right there. anyways in my early teens i always thought my life was horrible, all i wanted to do was not have my life; so i attempted to end it. my best friend at the time came into the room as i was attempting to make the cut deeper, she stopped me and I've always thought that it was by divine intervention. things did start to get better in my life, and i never would have had the chance to meet my husband if i had completed. suicide is a choice as well - and I've found that in most cases things get better (both from my own experience, as well as friends, and people from group therapy.) suicide is not an option. that is why there is 51/50 - that puts you in observation for 24hrs. its not natural to take your own life, its not ok to take your own life.

if you have an illness that you will never overcome, that you see as a burden on yourself and others, and that one way or another will take your life, why shouldn't a person have the choice on when and how their life will end.

thats my    thats just how i see things.

TJ 

[Romona]

Very nice post Tiffany. 
It is the patients choice, even if someone doesn't agree with it.

[Hanify]

Yes, I think that's right too.  it comes down to our own choice.  And it shouldn't be regarded as suicide.  Interesting topic.

[kristina]

I think that Dialysis is an option to keep me alive
if and when my kidneys are not able to work any longer.
My hope is, that whilst and when I would be on Dialysis
that something might be discovered
to make life on Dialysis more bearable.
My other hope is that I find a doctor soon
who is able to stop my MCTD/SLE flare-up
destroying my kidneys, so that I have
much more time left until the start of Dialysis and therefore
giving the aforementioned discovery
more time
to come along.
At the moment I educate myself as best as I can
(being a non-medical person) about Dialysis,
whilst I write many letters to doctors and
application to Hospitals etc., to find the specialist I am looking for.
I still have many plans and
perhaps I am a "chronic optimist".

[Beth35]

I do not believe stopping dialysis is suicide.  Suicide is when you do something to your own body that causes you to die.  With renal disease, most people do not just want to die.  They get tired of living the kind of life that dialysis requires so they stop the treatments that make them feel this way.  The person's BODY then, on it's own, starts to break down and THAT is essentially what kills you.

When people are suffering from a disease or a cancer, they have every right to stop TREATMENT.   They are not shooting themselves in the head or hanging themselves.  They are stopping treatment.  That person's body is responsible for no longer holding out.

I am young and have two young children.  I have been sick since I was 15.  I have been in and out of the hospital, and I have had a hard, hard life.  There have been moments that I have just wanted to quit.  I would never do that now as my family needs me.  But when I'm old and I have to go through this again, I may make a different choice.

[swramsay]

To the insurance question- my husband was told before he started, by a doctor, if he didn't want to do dialysis, it was not considered suicide and the insurance would pay out. It would be considered natural causes.

This is a difficult topic...

So the parents who didn't get their 11-yr-old daughter treatment for diabetes didn't help murder their child...they just let her die of natural causes? I think not doing dialysis is no different than refusing treatment for any life-threating condition. i do believe it is a form of suicide but then again I'm not sure I disagree with suicide under certain conditions - other than the Bible disagrees with it.

[Beth35]

There is a big difference between a child making a life threatening decision and an adult making a life threatening decision.  That is why children are not allowed to drive, smoke, drink alcohol and a long list of other things.  They are not mature enough to do so.

When a person is an adult, they have the right to discontinue treatment.  It is not the same as killing oneself.

If God wanted someone to live, stopping dialysis would not kill them would it?  God would just cure them.

[swramsay]

God gave us free will. Sadly, if we want to kill ourselves, God will allow it.

[glitter]

To the insurance question- my husband was told before he started, by a doctor, if he didn't want to do dialysis, it was not considered suicide and the insurance would pay out. It would be considered natural causes.

This is a difficult topic...

So the parents who didn't get their 11-yr-old daughter treatment for diabetes didn't help murder their child...they just let her die of natural causes? I think not doing dialysis is no different than refusing treatment for any life-threating condition. i do believe it is a form of suicide but then again I'm not sure I disagree with suicide under certain conditions - other than the Bible disagrees with it.

I dont know if that would apply to a child....I just repeated what we were told. See, in my mind, thats different because the mother made (or father) the choice for the child, the child didn't have the right to grow up and make an adult choice. I dont agree with that- parents dont always make perfect decisions and I dont think that one should be allowed. Now- if your a legally consenting adult and you choose to quit dialysis I agree with you having that choice, BUT if you were my loved one I would do anything I could to inspire/beg/whatever -to make you continue dialysis because I love you. I say that- and then it occurs to me- what if you're suffering? I wouldn't want someone I love to suffer. 

[Beth35]

But your not killing yourself when you stop treatment.  Your body shuts down.  You don't shut your own body down.  If God wanted someone alive he would cure the kidney disease.  That is my feeling. 

Stopping treatment and your body naturally dying is NOT the same thing as taking your life.  No one should be made to suffer when their body is failing them.  It is not fair to put people who have an illness and do not want to continue painful treatment in the same catagory as those who take their own life, when their body is perfectly healthy. 

[glitter]

Stopping treatment and your body naturally dying is NOT the same thing as taking your life.  No one should be made to suffer when their body is failing them.  It is not fair to put people who have an illness and do not want to continue painful treatment in the same catagory as those who take their own life, when their body is perfectly healthy.

that is what I think too.

[Romona]

But in case of a child, where the parents chose under religious beliefs is a hard subject. If the religion does not approve on the way they interrupt the Bible, who is to judge those beliefs.

[mcmkids]

Wow, this is quite an ethical discussion. Choosing to withhold treatment is not suicide. I am a hospice nurse and I have had patients with ESRD who have decided agianst dialysis as well as cancer patients that have opted against chemo. They have a life-threatening illness and are choosing not to prolong their life. They are not choosing to take their own life (the disease is trying to do that!). I have also had the misfortune of having to deal with BOTH of these illnesses with my husband in the past year. He was diagnosed with a stage IV myxosarcoma of the left atrium (heart) and went through 6 rounds of awful, horrible chemotherapy. He developed an infection at the end of round six, because he was so immunosupressed. Because he was so dehydrated and his BP was so low, his kidneys were starved of fluid and blood volume causing tubular necrosis which caused them to fail, which is why he is currently on dialysis. (Prior to chemo, he had healthy kidneys, now he runs high creatinine levels, the last being 7.65, and a GFR of He was in ICU and very close to death during that whole infectious process. Ask him today if he would go through chemo again if the cancer came back and he responds with a resounding, "No". Why? Because his quality of life was terrible during treatment and has never returned to what he perceives as "normal". I hope we never have to cross that bridge but if we do, he has the right to decide what to do with his own body and I can disagree but ultimately, it is my job to support that.

[Stacy Without An E]

It all depends on your quality of life and whether its high enough to push you to endure the pain and humiliation of Dialysis.

If you have no girlfriend and no one really loves you.  Or people at work hate you and mock you for your illness.  Or every time you have severe pain at treatment, the staff says you're making it up.  Or its your fault.  If you live paycheck to paycheck and wear the same clothes every week.

If this describes you, you should probably quit Dialysis.

Wait, I think that describes me.

[cyclops33]

Quality of life versus quantity of life.No stopping dialysis is not suicide.

[Hanify]

I absolutely don't see dialysis as in any way painful or humiliating.  Just a bit boring at times.  I'm one of the lucky ones I guess.  But I do believe it is our choice whether we do it, and I don't regard it as suicide.

[sico]

I don't think quitting dialysis is suicide. I can easily see how years of this could wear someone down to that point.
Some of what Stacy wrote describes me but i still have some hope for a better life in my future!