Is Quitting Dialysis Suicide

[BigSky]

Doesn't matter if we know what happens next or not.   Just because one way takes two weeks and the other may take 60 years doesn't remove the fact that the end result is the very same.

In not so many words what you are saying is that if people do not take every chance possbile by any means possible to prolong their life it is suicide. 

BS.

That would be saying if someone was on dialysis and dialysis just wasn't working anymore and they refused to have a transplant they are committing suicide.

People die because they refuse blood on religious grounds.  So that must be suicide.  Wait since their religion is behind that view it must be murder then.

[SpeedFleX]

No if you can't do anything about it it's not suicide and very sad too.


If someone is in a war and can't get there hands on food of course thats not suicide, but if that person has the chance to eat food and does not take it because they are fed up with life then yes then it's suicide.

[Zach]

I think quitting dialysis is suicide.  It is legal, but it is suicide all the same.

I think any time you plan out your death, it is suicide.

If however, you were stranded some where and there were no dialysis clinics, that would be an accident.   

[Ohio Buckeye]

If you needed dialysis and chose not to go that route, would that be letting
nature take its course or would that be suicide?
I struggled with going on dialysis and remember someone at church asking
me if I was going to do it.  I am glad I did.  I feel differently about it now that I'm
on it.  There are a lot of people who have cancer for instance going thru chemo
and it is not working.  They would gladly change places with me. I have a friend
who is going to be buried tomorrow who found out she had cancer 2 mos. ago
and had surgery and was doing chemo.  If I got to the place where I was suffering
really bad I don't think I would continue it.  I would want to just go on home then.
I hope I don't get to that place and don't have to make that kind of a decision.
I see people at the clinic being carried in on stretchers.  I would not want that.
I've seen my Mom, 2 brothers and a husband on life support and I never want to
be on it but I am actually am, I guess, just on a different type.

[angieskidney]

See I agree with a lot that has been said here. I just don't think that anyone that turns down dialysis is opting for suicide! Why? Because this is different! We have no kidneys and would die. But I know there are some religions that the person would opt for no dialysis yet are against suicide. But since I am young I still do dialysis because I hope for a transplant and a normal life again one day! If I was 90 I would not want to be made to live longer because by then I figure ... with starting down this road since real young .. by then I will have gone through so much that I won't be like some 90 year olds that have not been through a lot and are just starting with illness. I don't want to be one of those people I hear about being brought in on stretchers not even aware where they are and have no family around them. Of course maybe I will feel differently when I reach that time. I am against suicide and assisted suicide just like I am against abortion and murder. I just don't think that not doing dialysis could be put in the same category as suicide. That is all.

[sandman]

Doesn't matter if we know what happens next or not.   Just because one way takes two weeks and the other may take 60 years doesn't remove the fact that the end result is the very same.

Not to point out the obvious but this statement holds true for anyone, not just the sick or injured.

In not so many words what you are saying is that if people do not take every chance possbile by any means possible to prolong their life it is suicide. 

BS.

Now your blowing this right out of proportion.  What I am saying is that if a relatively healthy and functional person refused life prolonging treatment simply because they don't want to live anymore, that's suicide.  There's no BS about it.

That would be saying if someone was on dialysis and dialysis just wasn't working anymore and they refused to have a transplant, they are committing suicide.

In my honest opinion, if that person could live their life normally after the transplant ( minus the medications and routine tests ) then YES!

People die because they refuse blood on religious grounds.  So that must be suicide.  Wait since their religion is behind that view it, must be murder then.

I have never heard of that happening before but as stated earlier, if you intentionally refuse something that can save your life, then you must have intent on killing yourself.  Murder is when someone else takes your life away from you.

[Sara]

I guess I think that if you know doing something will lead to your death and you do it anyway, yes, technically it is suicide.  And doing nothing IS doing something. 

[Zach]

I guess I think that if you know doing something will lead to your death and you do it anyway, yes, technically it is suicide.  And doing nothing IS doing something. 

I think you have it right, Sara.

Part of the problem may be using the word suicide.
For many folks suicide = eternal damnation.

I personally believe that God has a special place in his heart for the chronically and terminally ill.
I'm no theologian, so I may have this all wrong.

[kitkatz]

If I stopped dialysis tomorrow would it be suicide? If I had the doc tell me there was nothing they could do to stop a progressive disease tonight besides the kidney failure, I would let go.
Sometimes I think it is the situation and circumstances you find yourself in whether you can make the decision to stop dialysis.  It is up to each creature what their time is and when it is time to go.  I think God will understand when a dialysis patient has had enough and turns up at the pearly gates.

[sandman]

If I stopped dialysis tomorrow would it be suicide? If I had the doc tell me there was nothing they could do to stop a progressive disease tonight besides the kidney failure, I would let go.
Sometimes I think it is the situation and circumstances you find yourself in whether you can make the decision to stop dialysis.

Okay, I can understand if there was farther complications other then only failed or failing kidneys.

[BigSky]

Not to point out the obvious but this statement holds true for anyone, not just the sick or injured.

Exactly.  By that definition of suicide just because one method may take two weeks while another may take 60 years means the latter doesn't get to make a claim its not suicide.  Either it is all suicide by that defination or none of it is.  There is no middle ground.

Now your blowing this right out of proportion.  What I am saying is that if a relatively healthy and functional person refused life prolonging treatment simply because they don't want to live anymore, that's suicide.  There's no BS about it.

Not at all.   Either one can use artificial means to say alive past their natural life or not.  There is no part way in the matter.  Also its not for you to determine if the person is "relatively healthy".  It is the person who is affected who gets to make that decision.

No its not suicide.  All mainstream religions and the government do not consider it to be suicide.

In my honest opinion, if that person could live their life normally after the transplant ( minus the medications and routine tests ) then YES!

So in fact you are admitting that taking the medications and routine tests is not a normal thing.  Yet you disagree over one letting the natural process take its course if they wish?

I have never heard of that happening before but as stated earlier, if you intentionally refuse something that can save your life, then you must have intent on killing yourself.  Murder is when someone else takes your life away from you.

Jehovah witness' do not accept blood transfusions because of their religious beliefs and yes they have died from it.  My buddy is a witness and he has made this point very clear to me if anything were to happen to him.  He and many other members carry a card around with him that states they are a witness and refuse blood.

[Black]

There is a difference in the 2 diseases, Sometimes terminal cancers goes into remission and nobody's can explain why! Kidney failure on the other hand does not go into remission and stays constent

Tell that Art Bukhwald~  http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/jan-june06/buckwald_3-28.html

I can't find out if he is still alive.  I will guess he is. ...

From Wikipedia: "... In February, 2006, Buchwald checked himself into in a Washington, D.C. area hospice. Although his kidneys were failing, he elected to forego kidney dialysis, saying that he wished to finish his days his way and to avoid end-of-life ailments that befall so many elderly individuals. However, his health did not fail as rapidly as he expected.

In June, 2006, Buchwald was again interviewed by Diane Rehm after leaving the hospice. He reports that his kidney is working and that he "blesses him every morning. Some people bless their hearts, I bless my kidney." He reported he was looking forward to getting a new leg and visiting Martha's Vineyard.

In July, 2006, Buchwald returned to his summer home on Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, a place he never expected to see again. While there, he is working on a book to be called, Too Soon to Say Goodbye, about the five months he spent in the hospice. Eulogies that were prepared by his notable friends and colleagues, but were never delivered, will be included in the book."

[Bajanne]

By the way, I noticed that none of us have mentioned that we had a member of IHD who stopped dialysis and passed away.  Old Boris did that.  There is an account of it in our memorial section on the home page.

[Epoman]

By the way, I noticed that none of us have mentioned that we had a member of IHD who stopped dialysis and passed away.  Old Boris did that.  There is an account of it in our memorial section on the home page.

FINALLY someone mentions "oldborris" and had any of you took the time to read the memorial section, you would know that. 

http://ihatedialysis.com/memorial.htm

Thank you bajanne

[sandman]

By the way, I noticed that none of us have mentioned that we had a member of IHD who stopped dialysis and passed away.  Old Boris did that.  There is an account of it in our memorial section on the home page.

FINALLY someone mentions "oldborris" and had any of you took the time to read the memorial section, you would know that. 

http://ihatedialysis.com/memorial.htm

Thank you bajanne

Sorry, I failed to spot that as the link to it was not in the main menu. 

[Padster]

This might sound offensive to some, but I am going to say it anyway.

I believe termination of life/euthanasia/ suicide is the inalienable right of every human being. As this is OUR life, surely we have the right to end it if life becomes unbearable? Is it not the one thing we DO have control over?

If someone has had enough of dialysis then it is up to them. It is THEIR body. I know family always comes into these things, but it really isn't a sin to think about number 1, especially when number 1s life is torture.

Yes, quitting dialysis is 'suicide'. I am not using the word in a judgemental way, merely that I can't dress it up as anything else.

[Hawkeye]

I guess I will chime in on this one.  From my experiences as a dialysis employee and from everything I have read here I agree there are reasons, and some very good ones for quiting dialysis.  I also agree that choosing to refuse treatment is your choice.  I am also not saying that all types of suicide are bad.  It all depends on the circumstances of the individual.  Those that are terminally ill have good reason to want to die and I can't blame them in any way for doing so.  I would even support them in that choice.  It's the people out there that are trying to get attention by doing something stupid and fail to get that attention and die that are in the wrong.  Even having said these things I believe that consciously and purposely choosing to do or not do anything that will directly result in your death is suicide regardless of the circumstances.  It has nothing to do with the reasons behind it, it has to do with the act and the outcome.

[mallory]

I voted that I do not think quitting dialysis is suicide, and, on an intellectual level, I do think that's true.  I couldn't do it myself if I thought I would still have a chance, because I would keep hoping that tomorrow someone may come out with a cure and I would like to stay alive as long as I feel like I'm making a contribution.

I will tell you, though, I might stop dialysis, and I wouldn't think it was suicide, if it got too be to much of a financial burden on my family.  I'm really worried about that.  Right now I still have private insurance, I'm employed, and I haven't started dialysis, but my medical bills are pretty darn high.  I take Epo, which I pay $50 a month for (4 injections), but on the new insurance my company is thinking of going to next year, it's not covered and I'll have to pay 80% of retail, which, as close as I can tell, is about $800 a week.  The Dialysis Center I will be going to isn't covered on the new insurance, and neither are two of my doctors.  They said I can go out-of-network, but I'll have to pay 60%.  I don't think I'll be able to afford it.  If it gets to the point where I'm just draining my family financially, I couldn't live with that.  Then, I'd be afraid that I'd end up dying anyway and I'd leave them in a financial ruin.  I worry a lot about how much all of this is going to cost...

[Ohio Buckeye]

When my husband passed away, he had been on a ventilator and was taken off for 3
days and needed to go back on it and did not want to.  He made that very clear.
Do I believe he committed suicide, no.  I would have felt the same.  We both had living
wills.  It would have prolonged his life maybe for a little while, but there is a difference
between being alive and living.

[Sara]

By the way, I noticed that none of us have mentioned that we had a member of IHD who stopped dialysis and passed away.  Old Boris did that.  There is an account of it in our memorial section on the home page.

FINALLY someone mentions "oldborris" and had any of you took the time to read the memorial section, you would know that. 

I read it, but I can't remember everything I read on this site. 

[kevno]

I have read about Old Boris, But I was talking from experience, the three I knew personally who gave up dialysis. All died within a couple of weeks after stopping dialysis. But all three had much more problems than just kidney failure. Was it right for them to stop dialysis? I had a long talk with one of them, he was very ill, his liver transplant was failing fast. He was in so much pain. He told me that he had lived his live to the full, he was only 55 years old. Plus he had just had enough of all the pain. No chance of another liver transplant, no chance of a kidney transplant. Even on dailysis he said the Doctors had given him just 6 months. But it would have been a six months of HELL. At the end of the talk that I had with him, I sort of agreed with him. Why pro long his life when all it would have been was pain and suffering. Was this Suicide?  I am not sure, he did end his own life But he ended his live at the time that he wanted to end it.

[sandman]

Okay.  I can understand if there are other reasons behind someones decisions to stop dialysis treatments.  Wether they are terminally ill and staying on dialysis will make little difference, religions against such a act, finical status or whatever else that could be a contributing factor in making a hard but logical choice.  Thinking on these lines, stopping dialysis treatments would NOT be considered suicide, but rather, deductive reasoning.

But if dialysis treatments are working and you can still make ends meet, still function away from the machines and can still make a contrabution to society but feel so emotionally distraught because you will have to live like that for the rest of your life and just can't bear to continue it any longer, then this would fit the definition of suicide.

[Sara]

Okay.  I can understand if there are other reasons behind someones decisions to stop dialysis treatments.  Wether they are terminally ill and staying on dialysis will make little difference, religions against such a act, finical status or whatever else that could be a contributing factor in making a hard but logical choice.  Thinking on these lines, stopping dialysis treatments would NOT be considered suicide, but rather, deductive reasoning.

But if dialysis treatments are working and you can still make ends meet, still function away from the machines and can still make a contrabution to society but feel so emotionally distraught because you will have to live like that for the rest of your life and just can't bear to continue it any longer, then this would fit the definition of suicide.

Killing yourself is killing yourself.  I don't think it really matters what your emotional state of being is (maybe it matter morally, but not as a matter of fact) or what your contribution to society is.

[MelissaJean]

When I think of killing yourself I feel that you are going against the natural order of life, or going against what your body wishes.  For example somebody who puts a gun to their head, takes an overdose of medications, etc.  With dialysis I feel that if I were to stop I would not be going against nature or my body. Therefore, in my personal definition of suicide, stopping dialysis wouldn't fit the criteria.  Although upon writing this, I realize that perhaps this is an oversimplified view. Does a diabetic patient who doesn't want to do insulin committing suicide  Hmmmm......... 

[angieskidney]

When I think of killing yourself I feel that you are going against the natural order of life, or going against what your body wishes.  For example somebody who puts a gun to their head, takes an overdose of medications, etc.  With dialysis I feel that if I were to stop I would not be going against nature or my body. Therefore, in my personal definition of suicide, stopping dialysis wouldn't fit the criteria.  Although upon writing this, I realize that perhaps this is an oversimplified view. Does a diabetic patient who doesn't want to do insulin committing suicide  Hmmmm......... 

That is my exact view but I couldn't put it into good enough words! Thank you! I mean, I would not "off" myself .. but I just don't think stopping dialysis would fit into the same catagory as shooting yourself or hanging yourself or slitting your wrists .. no matter how wrong it is.