Citizenship often determines medical care - Kidney dialysis is a case in point

[aharris2]

ok, the social security number and card are obtained through "other" channels and the gov't happily accepts taxes paid under those numbers.

I applaud the State of California for providing access to life saving medical treatment to anyone lucky enough to find themselves within her borders. I wish I could say the same for all of the states. We are so very lucky to, by an accident of birth, have been born in the US or anywhere else in the so-called first world which gives us access to so much whether I or my ancestors have been able to work for it (healthy enough, advantaged enough, educated enough (in whatever way), driven enough, not crushed enough by whatever discrimination) or not.

What makes me different from this "illegal" Mexican? This accident of birth? Only artificially. No, fundamentally we are the same.

One should not have to prove their citizenship for access to healthcare anymore than one should have to prove their income. There should be equal access for all and I certainly do not object to being taxed to pay for it. I do object to being taxed to pay for a wall.

To those who object to the "illegal" getting better services, this individual did not set her level of services high and yours low, someone else did. That someone else should be the target of your anger.

[paul.karen]

So breaking the law and coming into America ILLEGALY should be a right to everyone??
We shoudlnt try to round anyone up and deport them.?

I think it would be a differnt story if you had a dying baby in need of a kidney and they gave it to some ILLEGAL who was recently released from prison.  I mean if they are good or bad honest or dishonest it shouldnt matter.
America should just give it to an Illegal casue they took the time and courage to sneak into our country Illegaly??

Does the word ILLEGAL truly have no meaning ??

This is like saying well i killed that person casue he was gonna die soon anyhows?

[aharris2]

I've looked at the world. There are no borders on it. They were created by humans for the hoarding of resources.

There is no such thing as "illegals" (that's why I put it in quotes). They are people. They are not people who have killed or committed other affronts against their fellow man. They have simply stepped across a line which doesn't really exist.

It is so easy to dehumanize with the use of a label. That person is someone's dying baby, be she mine or someone else's.

[paul.karen]

Aharris i do see where your coming from.

So we should just do away with laws altogehter. Cause they are all manmade anyhows.
Kinda silly to say that huh.

And i in no way am trying to dehuminize anyone at all.
But sadly Illegal is a real word and it has real meaning.  And they dont committ murder?
Come to jersey where four College bound children werre lined up against a wall and shoot execution style.  By a baby rapist who was let out of jail but never reported to propler authorities to be deported.  For if he had been these four college bound kids would well they would be in college right now.

in a perfect world yes your scenerio would be nice.
But this world is far from perfect thus we have that silly word called laws.
Give the world time and we will have anarchy.   And many people will miss the law of the land.

But im not looking to argue.  You have your thoughts i have mine.  Im glad im here in the USA.  And i welcome all who come here legaly.  Like i did :-)

[okarol]

Please read this New York Times Article, "Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions."  My point is simply this, before launching blanket attacks at others, please gather and research the facts.  http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html.  This article explains how illegal immigrants contribute to social security.

As for your comments Rerun (which my husband -- the one ON dialysis -- finds ridiculous), I think I will go out and get some ice cream with lots of phosphorous and potassium -- in your honor.

I did read the story - thanks. If the illegals are doing so well, let them buy health insurance like the rest of us have to.

[Rerun]

As for your comments Rerun (which my husband -- the one ON dialysis -- finds ridiculous), I think I will go out and get some ice cream with lots of phosphorous and potassium -- in your honor.

Thank You!  Make sure you chase it with a 12oz glass of cold milk!  AHHHHHH  Yummy.

[Sunny]

The days of thinking illigal immmigration benefits society our over. They now cost taxpayers more than they bring in. The Center for Immmigration Studies states:
"U.S. households headed by illigal alliens used $26.3 billion in governement services in 2002, but paid $16 billion in taxes, an anual cost to taxpayers of 10.billion."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/dec/06/20041206-102115-6766r/

[aharris2]

And i in no way am trying to dehuminize anyone at all.
But sadly Illegal is a real word and it has real meaning.  And they dont committ murder?
Come to jersey where four College bound children werre lined up against a wall and shoot execution style.  By a baby rapist who was let out of jail but never reported to propler authorities to be deported.  For if he had been these four college bound kids would well they would be in college right now.

And i welcome all who come here legaly.  Like i did :-)

I come from Jersey. They ("illegals") did not commit these murders. A baby rapist-murderer committed these crimes. An individual, not a group. The individual may have been here illegally, but it is very wrong to suggest that such behavior is typical of the group. That highly prejudicial manner of telling the little story (above) is meant to stir rabid hysteria against a group.

I welcome anyone who wants to participate constructively in this country.

[aharris2]

I did read the story - thanks. If the illegals are doing so well, let them buy health insurance like the rest of us have to.

Okarol, it's difficult to buy insurance on wages of $8.50 to $12.75 per hour but perhaps that man has insurance through his employer, but that's besides the point.

The point is this - that man was indeed paying into social security and medicare, not to mention any state and local taxes required where he works, and sales tax. In short, any and all taxes that any of the rest of us would have to pay. But, that man will never see Social Security (I will), will never have Medicare (I will), and some would like to block him from Medi-Cal. He's a hard worker. He has paid for these things. Maybe he doesn't need them, but perhaps his wife (the lady who moved back from NC because she needs dialysis (yeah, stretching, I know)) does. Why should they not be entitled to what he has worked for? Most "illegals" do work, and the article suggests that 3/4 pay taxes. Why begrudge them dialysis?

[BigSky]

First of all, this article is improperly titled ("Citizenship often determines medial care").  Just because someone is not a citizen does not mean they are not in the U.S. legally.  There are many immigrants who may not yet be citizens who are here LEGALLY (i.e. work visas holders, green card holders, asylees, etc.). 

However as to the article it is dealing with illegals, not those here legally.

While immigration is a tough topic, I'd like to point out that many illegal immigrants do pay taxes (2/3 of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, social security and personal income taxes) and contribute to the American economy in many other ways.  So, perhaps before we take a stand on issues such as these, we should get all the facts straight.  I often see many complaints on this site about people who are ignorant about dialysis issues.

Then by all means we should get the facts straight.

Yet those facts are that they are breaking numerous laws working in the US and many of those illegals committed the crime of identity theft in order to obtain that social security number in order to pay those taxes.   

The point is this - that man was indeed paying into social security and medicare, not to mention any state and local taxes required where he works, and sales tax. In short, any and all taxes that any of the rest of us would have to pay. But, that man will never see Social Security (I will), will never have Medicare (I will), and some would like to block him from Medi-Cal.

As it should be.  Criminals are not suppose to benefit from their crimes.  Illegals break numerous laws coming and working in the US illegally.

[okarol]

I did read the story - thanks. If the illegals are doing so well, let them buy health insurance like the rest of us have to.

Okarol, it's difficult to buy insurance on wages of $8.50 to $12.75 per hour but perhaps that man has insurance through his employer, but that's besides the point.

I know it is. Jenna was earning $8.50 and hour and when her Medicare expires she will have to pay $400 per month for insurance.

[paul.karen]

And i in no way am trying to dehuminize anyone at all.
But sadly Illegal is a real word and it has real meaning.  And they dont committ murder?
Come to jersey where four College bound children werre lined up against a wall and shoot execution style.  By a baby rapist who was let out of jail but never reported to propler authorities to be deported.  For if he had been these four college bound kids would well they would be in college right now.

And i welcome all who come here legaly.  Like i did :-)

I come from Jersey. They ("illegals") did not commit these murders. A baby rapist-murderer committed these crimes. An individual, not a group. The individual may have been here illegally, but it is very wrong to suggest that such behavior is typical of the group. That highly prejudicial manner of telling the little story (above) is meant to stir rabid hysteria against a group.

I welcome anyone who wants to participate constructively in this country.

WOW
they all three people who killed these Four innocent kids were ILLEGAL you call them what you will ok.

And i ALSO welcome ANYONE who wants to participate Constructivly in this country.
if they do it LEGALY.
And  please do not say i am trying to stir rabid hysteria against any person or any group that is just incorrect. 
Sorry if i feel PEOPLE should follow the laws this is how i was brought up.

[Wallyz]

Y'all missed the reasoning behind the law-

It's cheaper to provide this care than to treat them on an emergent basis.  This population would clog up the emergency services, and be hospitalized until stable, then released to come back in the next week.


As a taxpayer, I appreciate them saving money.


Not all government policies are about punishment vs reward for behaviors.  Rein in your indignant outrage, and let's work to get spending under control.

[aharris2]

hmmm... the original story said "a baby rapist", now it's three baby rapists.

One or three, no matter. What percentage of baby rapists are in this country illegally? What percentage of persons illegally in this country are baby rapists? The answer to both, and I am only guessing is very very small percentage. Herein lies the stirring of rabid hysteria against a group - presenting the actions of a few as a characterization of the group.

And now, it's off to work. I may even selectively ignore certain traffic laws, bigsky? paul.karen?

(please note that I usually do obey this site's creator's law and spell check my posts!)

[paul.karen]

Oh sorry one Illegal was a baby rapist the other two illegals were just thugs selling drugs and decided to murder innocent kids.

And sorry my spellcheck doesnt work here at this computer.

[BigSky]

Y'all missed the reasoning behind the law-

It's cheaper to provide this care than to treat them on an emergent basis.  This population would clog up the emergency services, and be hospitalized until stable, then released to come back in the next week.


As a taxpayer, I appreciate them saving money.

Better yet have immigration pick them up and deport them.

And now, it's off to work. I may even selectively ignore certain traffic laws, bigsky? paul.karen?

(please note that I usually do obey this site's creator's law and spell check my posts!)

Well lets hope you dont steal someone identity in the process of breaking those laws.

[aharris2]

And sorry my spellcheck doesnt work here at this computer.

Having difficulty with conforming to a law?

I'm guessing that those entering would prefer to conform to the law, but our immigration laws tend not to work for those who need it most.

[paul.karen]

I am not breaking a law.  A request maybe but not a law by not using spellcheck.  Adn yes i need it i wont say differnt.  As well as being a poor typer i am a poor speller.

And you say those entering would like to confirm with our laws???

First step would be to not break the law by SNEAKING in to the US ILLEGALY.  If they didnt do that that would be a great first step. But i have a feeling you will even disagree with that point.  So if they dont abide buy that one easy and illegal law why would they want to conform with any others.

We could go round and round.
But as long as we both know im right ill stop talking about it.  JK :-)

Again so you know where i stand.
Im all for any nationality coming here the legal way.

[Zach]

Just a friendly reminder to everyone:

All members please use the spell check button or use Google's spell check on their toolbar (you can download from them). Please have some pride in your posts. This site will be here even after your death. I don't expect you to be perfect because I make mistakes too, but at least try.
[/list]

Just a friendly reminder to all of people who post.  Please spellcheck your posts.  I know i always have to reread my posts for those little errors.  Thanks bunches!

kitkatz,moderator

 

[florence]

The problem is that there are extremely few legal ways to come to the United States.  If you are a "skilled worker" (i.e. physician or have some type of higher education), you can attempt to get an H1B visa.  But, the U.S. places caps on these visas -- only a certain number of visas are issued each year.  People like Bill Gates have been encouraging the U.S. to provide more of these visas b/c U.S. companies want to attract the best and the brightest professionals from the United States and abroad.  By getting the best of the best from around the world, the U.S. -- particularly in the area of science and technology -- has been a leader in innovation. 

If you are in the category of "unskilled" workers, it is virtually impossible for you to come here legally.  The U.S. does not provide the legal means to do so.  If you have a relative who is a legal permanent resident or citizen, he/she could petition for you to come (it would probably take 15 - 20 years to do so), but that is pretty much the only legal way.

So, arguing that people should come here legally suggests that there is a legal way to come.  If you are poor and "unskilled" there really is not a way.  If your argument is that they should not come at all, then that's position to take.  From a policy perspective, it might make more sense to allow for greater legal avenues -- specifically to meet labor demands -- in order to control the flow of illegal migration.

I think also as a society we have to recognize that illegal immigrants provide cheap labor.  Normally, when people do not want certain jobs, employers are forced to increase wages.  But they don't have to when there is someone who will do the work for less.  If employers start increasing wages, prices on goods will go up.  We also have to take responsibility for this as consumers and be willing to pay for things at an increased cost.  This is also the case for goods that are produced abroad.  When we start demanding fair labor practices, we no longer get WallMart prices.  I am fine with that, but we as consumers have a lot of power in this regard.

Historically speaking, in the U.S. strict controls on immigration did not exist.  It has not been until more recent times that immigration laws have been implemented and enforced.  So, many of our ancestors -- who we cannot forget came here as immigrants -- did not have to worry about visas.  They were able to come and make the country what it is today.  Of course, those immigrants -- specifically Italian and Irish immigrants -- faced considerable racism and discrimination.

We seem to be facing hard times and these topics are difficult.  I hope, though, that there is a place for open discussion about these issues.  It's fine to be against illegal immigration, but I would hope we can still discuss the issues respectfully.  People are people and some people may do things that we disagree with, but ultimately we all are trying to do what's best for our families -- immigrants included who do have children and who are trying to provide a better life for those children.  When you are watching a child or parent face kidney disease it's heart breaking whether you're a citizen or non citizen.  You may disagree with illegal immigration and advocate for policies that discourage and prevent illegal immigration.  But I would hope that we don't treat people as being evil.  We all share a common humanity. 

[Rerun]

That is all good and well until there is only one kidney left on the table.  Who gets it.  Everyone matches.  Bring this discussion down to your family.  Your American child is waiting for a kidney or worse a heart.  If Mexico had a great heart transplant program would you race over there.  No because you would be shot at the border.  If all countries would abide by your civil ethics appeal then maybe we could work things out.  But, that is not how it is and the world can not live in America.  Hard choices have to be made and I'm lucky to be born in the United States.  If I were born in Iraq or Mexico I'd live within my means.  The days are gone where America wanted all the skilled to come fill its borders.  We have enough unskilled labor born here!  We don't need anymore.

(I used spell check)   

[florence]

But, I think my point has been missed.  I never said that I don't think reforms are needed in the area of immigration.  I just think sometimes it's important to look at the nuances of an issue.  The issue does affect my family -- my husband is on the waiting list.  I think we also have to be cognizant of the fact that illegal immigrants also donate organs.  The following is a quote from an LA Times Article, available athttp://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-liver13apr13,1,6190565.story?page=1 (I think it has been posted previously).

But Dr. Michael Shapiro, vice chairman of the ethics committee for the organ network, said illegal immigrants have just as much right to organ transplants as U.S. citizens. He said it is likely that more illegal immigrants donate organs than receive them. "People are people, and when you make an incision in an organ donor, you don't find little American flags planted on their organs," Shapiro said.

Perhaps a more interesting question would be, would you refuse an organ if you knew it came from an illegal immigrant?

[Rerun]

I get your point I just don't agree. 

Lets take your scenario one step to the right.  Lets have Filipinos come over to donate organs and we can send them home with $50,000.  Everyone would like that. 

I agree people are people.  But laws are in place to protect people.  And no I would not take an organ from an illegal person without paying for it with cash.  And they go home.

I don't know that I'm right, but I know how I feel. I feel that America is getting ravaged by illegal immigrants coming over and taking advantage.

Oh, that's right.... this is America...... The Land of The Free.....  Free Health Care, Free Food, Free clothes  etc...

I'm not going to post on this thread anymore..... You feel how you feel and I feel how I feel.  That is what I love about this site.

                                                         

[BigSky]

Historically speaking, in the U.S. strict controls on immigration did not exist.  It has not been until more recent times that immigration laws have been implemented and enforced.  So, many of our ancestors -- who we cannot forget came here as immigrants -- did not have to worry about visas.  They were able to come and make the country what it is today.  Of course, those immigrants -- specifically Italian and Irish immigrants -- faced considerable racism and discrimination.

That was then this is now.  The US cannot afford to have a flood of unskilled people coming into the US and dragging down the system.


They cost the US over 10 billion from use of Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools. 

[florence]

Thanks for sharing your views, Rerun.  Until the next political debate ...!