Im a Racist

[Zach]

Okay, fine.  The moderator is here.  This is, may I remind you all, the political section.  The rules are looser here, because we expect you to stay out if you can't handle it.  So, here's my Official Moderator Warning:

Play nice, or in the spirit of Mother's Day, I'm taking the thread away and none of you can play with it.

jbeany, Moderator.

 

[skg]

Is there any interest in finding a real thread amongst the rubble?

There are some interesting questions -- at least to me:

1. When is an accusation of racism warranted?

2. When is an accusation of racism unwarranted?

3. What are appropriate responses in either of the "problematic" cases -- an accusation of racism which is unwarranted, or no such accusation when it is?

4. Are there gray areas?

For what it's worth, I think the questions can just as easily be asked about any sort of prejudice (along with an accusation of prejudice) -- we could substitute "homophobia" for "racism", if we wished. Or perhaps "ignorance of/insensitivity to" serious medical conditions. The answers might be similar for such different topics, or maybe not.

I think there is little hope of getting anywhere in such a discussion unless one is careful to avoid generalities. There may not be anything which is true of all conservatives or of all liberals or all IHD'ers or .... But, for specific instances of accusation or prejudice, it might be possible to reach something vaguely resembling agreement.

cheers,
skg

[iKAZ3D]

Is there any interest in finding a real thread amongst the rubble?

There are some interesting questions -- at least to me:

1. When is an accusation of racism warranted?
Obliviously obvious Hate crimes
2. When is an accusation of racism unwarranted?
Asking for my coffee black.
3. What are appropriate responses in either of the "problematic" cases -- an accusation of racism which is unwarranted, or no such accusation when it is?
Warranted Racism? Fines, maybe jail time. It's not as big of an offense as it used to be. Unwarranted, the accuser better be giving you a little something something for labeling you a racist for a time being.
4. Are there gray areas?
Well, blacks call each other the 'N' word like it's a term of endearment, but 'whyte fulk' say it and it's racist. Yet they can call us Honky Crackahs and Whitey with no racist remarks. Duhell?
For what it's worth, I think the questions can just as easily be asked about any sort of prejudice (along with an accusation of prejudice) -- we could substitute "homophobia" for "racism", if we wished. Or perhaps "ignorance of/insensitivity to" serious medical conditions. The answers might be similar for such different topics, or maybe not.

I think there is little hope of getting anywhere in such a discussion unless one is careful to avoid generalities. There may not be anything which is true of all conservatives or of all liberals or all IHD'ers or .... But, for specific instances of accusation or prejudice, it might be possible to reach something vaguely resembling agreement.

cheers,
skg











EDITED:Fixed quote tag error-kitkatz, Moderator

[Hemodoc]

Is there any interest in finding a real thread amongst the rubble?

There are some interesting questions -- at least to me:

1. When is an accusation of racism warranted?

2. When is an accusation of racism unwarranted?

3. What are appropriate responses in either of the "problematic" cases -- an accusation of racism which is unwarranted, or no such accusation when it is?

4. Are there gray areas?

For what it's worth, I think the questions can just as easily be asked about any sort of prejudice (along with an accusation of prejudice) -- we could substitute "homophobia" for "racism", if we wished. Or perhaps "ignorance of/insensitivity to" serious medical conditions. The answers might be similar for such different topics, or maybe not.

I think there is little hope of getting anywhere in such a discussion unless one is careful to avoid generalities. There may not be anything which is true of all conservatives or of all liberals or all IHD'ers or .... But, for specific instances of accusation or prejudice, it might be possible to reach something vaguely resembling agreement.

cheers,
skg

The thread began in response to politically motivated accusations of alleged racism among conservatives and especially targeting the Tea Party movement. Just like asking, "when did you stop beating your wife," it is  pretty much impossible to answer such a provocative question which is not founded in truth. Once again, the accusation is enough and watch the victim of that targeted attack squirm.

Many people today continue to believe the lie that the Tea Party is racist. Sorry, that was not at all the motivation for the Tea Party coming forth, but that is now the popular misconception.

I believe the best example of what the Tea Party is/was all about is the rally where hundreds of men and woman and children stood for hours to listen to a black man speak about restoring American ideals and ended with a rousing tribute from a marine singing the second stanza of the Star Spangled Banner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9_bP219ehQ

The accusation of racism against Tea Party folks is absolutely refuted by this one video, yet many have never seen the video showing exactly what motivated most of the folks in the movement. Instead, the accusation of racism continues even today quite unjustly. In other words, it was and is a very powerful and effective political tool, but it is quite dishonest.

[cariad]

Is there any interest in finding a real thread amongst the rubble?

There are some interesting questions -- at least to me:

1. When is an accusation of racism warranted?

2. When is an accusation of racism unwarranted?

3. What are appropriate responses in either of the "problematic" cases -- an accusation of racism which is unwarranted, or no such accusation when it is?

4. Are there gray areas?

For what it's worth, I think the questions can just as easily be asked about any sort of prejudice (along with an accusation of prejudice) -- we could substitute "homophobia" for "racism", if we wished. Or perhaps "ignorance of/insensitivity to" serious medical conditions. The answers might be similar for such different topics, or maybe not.

I think there is little hope of getting anywhere in such a discussion unless one is careful to avoid generalities. There may not be anything which is true of all conservatives or of all liberals or all IHD'ers or .... But, for specific instances of accusation or prejudice, it might be possible to reach something vaguely resembling agreement.

cheers,
skg

I think these are great questions, skg. Sadly, in this thread I think we also need to ask the question "what are appropriate responses to someone who cannot be reassured that no one is accusing anyone on IHD of being a racist?"

The original poster was Paul. Now, I disagree with Paul on almost everything possible, but you couldn't ask to meet a nicer individual. He really knew how to keep politics separate from the support aspect of this forum, and he was there for me as much as anyone else. I have no doubt that he started this discussion out of a sincere frustration that he felt. As I would be the first to tell him, I hardly agree with Obama all the time, either. I am not concerned that people are calling me a racist, though. I have certainly faced that situation several times, though, of being told that my actions were racially charged. My reactions were tailored to the diverse situations in which I had found myself. 

Racism is touchy (duh!) and I see a parallel to false accusations of rape. Rape is an under-reported crime as it is, and false allegations, rare as they are, do enormous damage to the women who have truly survived that nightmare. However, like rape, if the result is that people are afraid to call it out when they see it, or even worse, don't believe the next woman who comes along and tells her story, then I have to question people's commitment to the cause if they are so ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Racism needs to be pointed up when it occurs. If it upsets people, to borrow a phrase, so be it. The response to unwarranted accusations of any sort should be to call those unwarranted claims out and defend the person under criticism. However, that unwarranted accusations have occurred should never, never stop people from speaking up loud and clear when they see racism in action.

Are there grey areas? Well, aren't there always?

[Hemodoc]

Is there any interest in finding a real thread amongst the rubble?

There are some interesting questions -- at least to me:

1. When is an accusation of racism warranted?

2. When is an accusation of racism unwarranted?

3. What are appropriate responses in either of the "problematic" cases -- an accusation of racism which is unwarranted, or no such accusation when it is?

4. Are there gray areas?

For what it's worth, I think the questions can just as easily be asked about any sort of prejudice (along with an accusation of prejudice) -- we could substitute "homophobia" for "racism", if we wished. Or perhaps "ignorance of/insensitivity to" serious medical conditions. The answers might be similar for such different topics, or maybe not.

I think there is little hope of getting anywhere in such a discussion unless one is careful to avoid generalities. There may not be anything which is true of all conservatives or of all liberals or all IHD'ers or .... But, for specific instances of accusation or prejudice, it might be possible to reach something vaguely resembling agreement.

cheers,
skg

I think these are great questions, skg. Sadly, in this thread I think we also need to ask the question "what are appropriate responses to someone who cannot be reassured that no one is accusing anyone on IHD of being a racist?"

That is a strange question to focus on out of all of this entire discussion since all I observed on this thread were rhetorical questionings of painting all in one large group with a broad brush of racism that had nothing whatsoever to do with individual motivations or applications to a given individual revealing the fallacy of calling all Tea Party folks racist.

The danger of this false allegation against folks such as those in the Tea Party is it gives an unduly biased and even slanderous view of someone who might identify as a Tea Party Patriot who has not any racism within them as their motivation for participating in that manner. So, once again, there are many rhetorical devices, and that is one that should make folks stop painting conservatives with a broad brush of racism.

I would instead point to a concept not taught widely in America any longer of God and Country and to uphold both of them. If folks think Tea Party folks are racist, then they simply do not understand the underlying, old fashioned values of patriotism and love of our God that was once a virtue in this nation, but no longer is.

The irony is that those that accuse the Tea Party of racism go into cognitive dissonance in trying to explain the Tea Party support and admiration for such people as Allen West, Marco Rubio and Herman Caine in addition to Senator Cruz from Texas.  Racism??? NOPE, just good old fashioned ideals once praised in this nation.

One last thing, go find a WWII vet if you can and talk to them about what the flag means to them. Most likely, you won't get far into the conversation before both of you have tears streaming down your face. I didn't understand this until I entered the military myself. There are millions of Americans who have willingly and would willingly sacrifice their very lives for the American ideals other people trash and denigrate with little thought. Racism, no just good old fashioned love of God and Country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9_bP219ehQ

Last Verse of our National Anthem:

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Folks, that used to be celebrated not ridiculed throughout this great land. If you truly want to know what motivates the Tea Party folks, just watch the entire video a couple of times.

[MooseMom]

Hemodoc, I may be wrong, and I may be unintentionally putting words into skg's mouth, but I got the impression that he was attempting to broaden this discussion by posing more general questions that don't specifically target the Tea Party.

We all have read lengthy threads which start on one topic but then morph into something else.

I have often wondered who gets to define what is racist.  If you say something that you don't mean to be racist or sexist or some other-ist, but the person you are talking to hears racism or sexism, what happens next?

Does anyone remember when Tiger Woods first won The Masters?  Apparently the winner gets to choose the celebratory menu, and Fuzzy Zoeller flippantly said that Woods would choose fried chicken and collard greens.  I was living in England at the time, and I remember thinking that I'd kill for decent friend chicken and collard greens, and please add blackeyed peas.  When I read in the press that Zoeller was accused of being racist because of those remarks, I didn't understand it.  I had to read an explanation in a British newspaper.  I had to be told that Zoeller was being racist.  So, who got to decide that?

[Hemodoc]

Hemodoc, I may be wrong, and I may be unintentionally putting words into skg's mouth, but I got the impression that he was attempting to broaden this discussion by posing more general questions that don't specifically target the Tea Party.

We all have read lengthy threads which start on one topic but then morph into something else.

I have often wondered who gets to define what is racist.  If you say something that you don't mean to be racist or sexist or some other-ist, but the person you are talking to hears racism or sexism, what happens next?

Does anyone remember when Tiger Woods first won The Masters?  Apparently the winner gets to choose the celebratory menu, and Fuzzy Zoeller flippantly said that Woods would choose fried chicken and collard greens.  I was living in England at the time, and I remember thinking that I'd kill for decent friend chicken and collard greens, and please add blackeyed peas.  When I read in the press that Zoeller was accused of being racist because of those remarks, I didn't understand it.  I had to read an explanation in a British newspaper.  I had to be told that Zoeller was being racist.  So, who got to decide that?

No problem Moosemom. I just responded to an ongoing issue and comments made over and over again. Making an accusation that a group is racist is also in essence calling anyone that is a member of the group or a person who identifies with that group likewise racist. Since many folks were calling the Tea Party racist, I simply wanted to show that painting such a broad generalization is shallow, rather ignorant, biased and bigoted.  While I have never attended a Tea Party event, I identify with the ideals of that movement. Interestingly, my wife who is a naturalized US citizen, formerly from the Philippines, she also identifies with the Tea Party movement although she certainly does not fit the "profile" of a so called Tea Party person. In any case, some folks turned that around into some sort of persecution complex on my part completely missing the point of what I was intending to simply show that what motivated the Tea Party movement had nothing to do with racism whatsoever.

In any case, I was not answering skg in my comment above, but instead Cariad who has brought up this issue several times over and over again. Nevertheless, I suspect that many folks will continue to believe the propaganda campaign accusation that Tea Party folks are indeed racist. That is a popular belief today among many people and I hear it not just here on IHD.

The issue becomes dealing with a false allegation once it is ventured against a group or a person. Casting aspersions has long been a political ploy, but today it appears to be an art form that generates a great deal of consternation for those accused falsely and a great deal of  enjoyment for those doing the casting. Hmmm, sounds a bit like, why yes, the Rules for Radicals by Alinsky. Let see, the false accusation against the Tea Party folks fits into at least a couple of his rules:

* RULE 5: “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)
* RULE 6: “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.” They’ll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They’re doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones. (Radical activists, in this sense, are no different that any other human being. We all avoid “un-fun” activities, and but we revel at and enjoy the ones that work and bring results.)
* RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

So, here we are years later and the accusation is still an active ongoing issue. So, no matter how many Tea Party folks protest, the allegation alone is enough to do great damage. And indeed it has.

[Simon Dog]

Another question:

Should the rules be different for different races?   It is acceptable for voters of one race to "vote their race", but racist if voters of another color "vote their race?".

[Rerun]

I know!  How's that work?  Or for Jamie Fox to get up and say that his race is the most talented in the world?  Why weren't their riots in the streets?  I think it is just normal.  What Grandmother doesn't think HER kids are the cutest and best at everything.  Even at a lower realm, my dog is the best. 

[MooseMom]

Another question:

Should the rules be different for different races?   It is acceptable for voters of one race to "vote their race", but racist if voters of another color "vote their race?".

It's "acceptable" for anyone to vote however they wish for whatever reason they wish.

People more often than not vote for whichever candidate they deem to be "like me".  We hear all the time about someone voting for the candidate they'd enjoy having a beer with.  People vote all the time for the guy from their home town.  Women often vote for the female candidate because they may feel she is more "like them".  That's why no candidate stands a chance unless they blather on about how happily married they are and how many kids and/or dogs they have because they want to paint a picture of similarity.

There are no "rules" when it comes to voting.  The big fight is really just being ABLE to vote these days. 

[iKAZ3D]

I know!  How's that work?  Or for Jamie Fox to get up and say that his race is the most talented in the world?  Why weren't their riots in the streets?  I think it is just normal.  What Grandmother doesn't think HER kids are the cutest and best at everything.  Even at a lower realm, my dog is the best.

  You're hilarious. You say I AM, but I think you are. xD

[Hemodoc]

Another question:

Should the rules be different for different races?   It is acceptable for voters of one race to "vote their race", but racist if voters of another color "vote their race?".

It's "acceptable" for anyone to vote however they wish for whatever reason they wish.

People more often than not vote for whichever candidate they deem to be "like me".  We hear all the time about someone voting for the candidate they'd enjoy having a beer with.  People vote all the time for the guy from their home town.  Women often vote for the female candidate because they may feel she is more "like them".  That's why no candidate stands a chance unless they blather on about how happily married they are and how many kids and/or dogs they have because they want to paint a picture of similarity.

There are no "rules" when it comes to voting.  The big fight is really just being ABLE to vote these days.

I thought the only voting rule in the last election was vote and vote often.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS77Z57mQBg

[MooseMom]

And here I was thinking that the only rule was to make it as difficult as possible for as many people as possible to vote!

[willowtreewren]

And here I was thinking that the only rule was to make it as difficult as possible for as many people as possible to vote!

 

Just goes to show that both sides have heart-felt claims against the other.

[cariad]

You no what Cariad, this is getting old. The subtitle on this section states: Political discussions - no personal attacks or name calling I have stuck to the topic of these threads. If you persist in your personal crusade against me here at IHD, I will in the future not respond, but I will report each one to the moderators. So, make up your mind, continue the personal crusade against me, or talk about the topic at hand. Your choice, but I am tired of this myself and I assume everyone else reading it is likewise.

Have a great day.

If you cannot take the response to the outrageous accusations you make, then don't make them. I never called everyone in the Tea Party racist. Never. I also am hardly leading a 'crusade'. As I've said, and will continue to say so long as you keep flinging these accusations at me, you are putting words in my mouth and I do not appreciate it in the least. Screeching at me to stay on topic when you bring up Saul Alinsky (there is a thread for that) is hypocrisy. You say you won't answer my posts, and then sure enough....

Since many folks were calling the Tea Party racist, I simply wanted to show that painting such a broad generalization is shallow, rather ignorant, biased and bigoted.  While I have never attended a Tea Party event, I identify with the ideals of that movement. Interestingly, my wife who is a naturalized US citizen, formerly from the Philippines, she also identifies with the Tea Party movement although she certainly does not fit the "profile" of a so called Tea Party person. In any case, some folks turned that around into some sort of persecution complex on my part completely missing the point of what I was intending to simply show that what motivated the Tea Party movement had nothing to do with racism whatsoever.

In any case, I was not answering skg in my comment above, but instead Cariad who has brought up this issue several times over and over again. Nevertheless, I suspect that many folks will continue to believe the propaganda campaign accusation that Tea Party folks are indeed racist. That is a popular belief today among many people and I hear it not just here on IHD.

By YOUR calculus, you have called EVERYONE in the radical world a retard. In this very thread.

Yup, I have read Machiavelli in my younger days and I throw his garbage in the same heap as Alinski, Rubin all the other retards in the radical world.

I identify with the ideals of the radical world. So in addition to calling me 'shallow, rather ignorant, biased and bigoted', you've also called me a retard. Nice.

[Gerald Lively]

Racism is alive and well in America.  Please examine the vote in the past general election where the so-called ethnic minorities overwhelmingly voted against the Republican agenda.

GOP is opposing any meaningful immigration policy.  Gingrich wants to limit immigration to white Europeans. Bachmann seens to think the US government is run by Muslims and demands an investigation.  And party official say they lost the election because they need more angry white men.

gl

[iKAZ3D]

You no what Cariad, this is getting old. The subtitle on this section states: Political discussions - no personal attacks or name calling I have stuck to the topic of these threads. If you persist in your personal crusade against me here at IHD, I will in the future not respond, but I will report each one to the moderators. So, make up your mind, continue the personal crusade against me, or talk about the topic at hand. Your choice, but I am tired of this myself and I assume everyone else reading it is likewise.

Have a great day.

If you cannot take the response to the outrageous accusations you make, then don't make them. I never called everyone in the Tea Party racist. Never. I also am hardly leading a 'crusade'. As I've said, and will continue to say so long as you keep flinging these accusations at me, you are putting words in my mouth and I do not appreciate it in the least. Screeching at me to stay on topic when you bring up Saul Alinsky (there is a thread for that) is hypocrisy. You say you won't answer my posts, and then sure enough....

Since many folks were calling the Tea Party racist, I simply wanted to show that painting such a broad generalization is shallow, rather ignorant, biased and bigoted.  While I have never attended a Tea Party event, I identify with the ideals of that movement. Interestingly, my wife who is a naturalized US citizen, formerly from the Philippines, she also identifies with the Tea Party movement although she certainly does not fit the "profile" of a so called Tea Party person. In any case, some folks turned that around into some sort of persecution complex on my part completely missing the point of what I was intending to simply show that what motivated the Tea Party movement had nothing to do with racism whatsoever.

In any case, I was not answering skg in my comment above, but instead Cariad who has brought up this issue several times over and over again. Nevertheless, I suspect that many folks will continue to believe the propaganda campaign accusation that Tea Party folks are indeed racist. That is a popular belief today among many people and I hear it not just here on IHD.

By YOUR calculus, you have called EVERYONE in the radical world a retard. In this very thread.

Yup, I have read Machiavelli in my younger days and I throw his garbage in the same heap as Alinski, Rubin all the other retards in the radical world.

I identify with the ideals of the radical world. So in addition to calling me 'shallow, rather ignorant, biased and bigoted', you've also called me a retard. Nice.

THE WORD. *GASP*
 

[duncan reamhiar]

It's funny you bring this subject up. I am totally not a racist, however I did not vote for Obama and I knew we were in trouble if he was to be voted in. I also said he would more than likely win. I strongly believe some folks voted him in to office to prove they were NOT racist. A little different look at things, maybe but I am glad we finally had a President from a different race get voted in. That's done now so when will we get a female President? Just thinking we should get that out of the way as well.       Maybe we need to find someone who really has this Country in their best interest and move forward...I don't care what gender or what color, I just want someone who really knows what they are doing.

Cheers Sluff ye hit it spot on..