No FLy zone in Libya

[paul.karen]

Just curious of what people think.

[texasstyle]

I understand that is not as easy as it sounds legaly. There are couple of coutries as of this morning wanting this. France(? )being one of them. I would like to know more. I thinkthat means that if anyone penatrates the no fly zone they can be shot down. (somebody can fill me in if I'm wrong and I probably am lol) My concern is that we are not at war and the people that the no fly zone is trying to protect are directly in that area. My opinon is in a way I don't thinkwe should be involved, but on the same token it is becoming such a major humanatarian crisis. This morning, he says the communists are responsible. I guess they are communist members of Al Queda who are drinking the LSD in the coffe that he said lol.  I strongly believe he has even a mild form of dementia. Being a president doesn't exclude you from that. Honestly, there is probably no right answer for this. It is hard enough trying to understand how different cultures life let alone try and solve thier problems. This morning Lybian military planes bombed an area at a refinery. Reports said it was quite damaging. It must be so scary to look up and see your own govt. bombing you but they are fighting a civil war. oh well, just my 2 cents. Like I said we'll never totltaly understand.

[paul.karen]

A no fly zone in easy terms means we or some country (doubtful the UN will do anything) would fly into libya and bomb radar stations-runways-and air control towers.  Probably a few other key sites sense we are there?

No boots would be needed on the ground for this.

Sooner rather then later IMO.  This wouold keep the airforce from killing inocent people and as well blowing up oil fileds oil supplies.

i dont think we should send in any army or marines but we should send in some people who can help sort out the people who wish to get the madman out of power.  Sitting by and watching him kill innocent people dosent look good for us.  The people ousting the lunatic are asking why america isnt helping?

This is just my viewpoint..

[MooseMom]

Do we have the money to do this?  Wouldn't Congress have to appropriate funds or something?  If so, would they?  It's not like the US is under attack, so I am not sure that our current Congress would want to spend money defending foreign civilians.

[Rerun]

I feel bad for those people but we can't afford to take them on.  We just need to use our own oil.  Now if we get attacked we would have to go in and then people would blame Obama for "planning" the attack so that we would get involved.

Sound familiar??? 

[texasstyle]

Thanks for explaing that. Wow though, that's like opening a whole differeny can of worms. We  if there are any civilian casulties from bombing such towers etc..? That could get to be real touchy. The Lybians want this  enforced and hopefull they would be out of the way. Then there's the possibilty of it being considered an at of war. Even touchier subject. Not like the Lybian military could take us down anyway. McCain for one is pushing for the no fly zone that I know of. I'm glad to understand it a little better. What a tricky situation. I thinkthis will be over soon. Moosemom: we don't have the money, but we really do. I also don't think it's so much as defending another countries civilains as it is the humanatarian crisis that is arisng from this. We are only seeing a teenie-tiny bit of what is going on. The refugees alone is a crisis. I always say "why do we (USA) have to get involved?". "It's not our problem". Well the truth of the matter is that to some degree even with all our own problems we are still the Ploliceman of the world. We are still a huge super power. Some may disagree and at times I might even quesiton myself. Something very, very bad is happening there and at this point  someone just has to help.Others are joining in as well. Just my opinon. All I know is that I am glad I am not the one who has to ultimetly make the decesion.

[Bill Peckham]

I can't see where it is in our national interest to take ownership of the situation. I assume we are helping on the down low, we have probably already supplied communication equipment, supplies, etc. but one reason the situation in Egypt, Tunisia turned out well is that the US kept a low profile.

If we were to declare war on a third Arab country - and that is what a no fly zone is, it's a declaration of war - it could turn out very badly. Especially when you look at what's there - Qaddafi has not allowed any societal structures there is nothing to step in once he is defeated. It's a tribal area that is going to be a  mess long after this chapter is closed.

And what happens if he doesn't loose? What happens if the rebels aren't able to keep it together and see this through? Then do we send boots to finish the job? And then what?

If we are willing to establish a no fly zone over Libya then what about Burma? The Congo? South Sudan? Yemen? Where does it stop?

[Henry P Snicklesnorter]

.

[texasstyle]

I agree about he situation in Eygpt as to no intervention but they really didn't need it. They asked that we not help in fact. Lybians are pleading for help. As much as I want to say "oh those people in the middle east will always have problems" I think they are people. I don't know, maybe I'm just overly sensative.

[Bill Peckham]

I think this Fallows commentary is exactly right
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/03/on-libya-what-happens-then/72741/

I didn't like the "shut up and leave it to us" mode of foreign policy when carried out by people I generally disagreed with, in the Bush-Cheney era. I don't like it when it's carried out by people I generally agree with, in this Administration.

Why is it so difficult to consider ahead of time what is suppose to happen after you catch the Frisbee?

[MooseMom]

Don't know the answer to that...

I suspect that the Arab League wants the West to do their dirty work for them.  Gaddafi isn't good for anyone.  Other nations in the Middle East have wanted him out for years, and now is their opportunity to do just that.  But they need the West to do it because they can't be seen attacking a fellow Muslim country.  Now the Arab League has decided it is time for the inevitable criticism of the West's actions.

[Chris]

I was just thinking that we do not need another Afghanistan situation either to develop. Let other countries take charge of helping another country, the US doesn't need to be the leader in helping. We do not have the funds, nor can we help our own people and it seems most of the time when we do help a country, they in turn hate us or expect more and more without helping themselves is IMO.

[MooseMom]

Actually, I don't think the US is taking the lead in this particular action.  Of course, the Administration is being criticized for letting France and Britain lead the charge. 

[texasstyle]

Oh dear, I think there is a fine mess now. *sigh* What to do...

[billybags]

Personally I don't think any nation could appease the Arab countries no matter what they do, they are a complex nation. I know it sounds harsh but I think we should all keep out of their affairs, lets face it our governments can not look after there own peoples needs. We can not and do not want another war.

[Des]

I think everyone must interfere if it involves human rights. We cannot turn a blind eye. But US are very particular in which country they interfere in (hint -oil) and the "help" has nothing to do with human rights. Lots of other African countries have genecide and poverty and civil war - were is the US? Fighting over oil.   

Just my  or $1000

[cariad]

I think everyone must interfere if it involves human rights. We cannot turn a blind eye. But US are very particular in which country they interfere in (hint -oil) and the "help" has nothing to do with human rights. Lots of other African countries have genecide and poverty and civil war - were is the US? Fighting over oil.   

Just my  or $1000

You speak the truth Ms. Des.

[Zach]

I think everyone must interfere if it involves human rights. We cannot turn a blind eye. But US are very particular in which country they interfere in (hint -oil) and the "help" has nothing to do with human rights. Lots of other African countries have genecide and poverty and civil war - were is the US? Fighting over oil.   

Just my  or $1000

Does Kosovo have large oil reserves?

[cariad]

Zach, I think it's an apt generalization that Des makes. Aside from that, I saw a great documentary on Kosovo about 10 years ago and it did not cast the US and the UN in a particularly good light. In fact, if I remember correctly, the UN peacekeeping forces were withdrawn and they had footage of these forces embracing the Serbian leaders who had just been shown marching the ethnic Albanians into concentration camps. It was a great documentary, but so very sad.

Anyhow, according to Wikipedia, the trouble started for them in 1989 - it took roughly a decade for the US to show any real willing in that region.

As I am far from an expert in this, though, perhaps you have more information that shows another angle.

[MooseMom]

I don't think it is possible for the Obama Administration to do anything without provoking criticism.  Regarding Libya, the Administration has been criticised for doing nothing to promote democracy like all American presidents have done for yonks.  Then the White House is criticized for participating in the no fly zone because it is an act of war and Congress should have been consulted first.  But then, it's a humanitarian issue, so we should have done something sooner (and where is the rest of the world?  Where are the South Africans?  The Argentinians?  The Indians?  The Norwegians?)  Oh, and we're just concerned about the oil.  Well, it's the Europeans who get their oil from Libya.  The US gets only 2% of our oil from that country.  So, are we there just because we get oil from Libya, or did we hesitate just because we only get a little bit of oil from Libya?

So, we try to take the middle ground and let the Europeans take the lead in this.  OH NO!!!  Now we're abdicating our omnipotence to the French.  EGAD!  We're supposed to be number 1!!

[paris]

Libya and Egypt are not in the Middle East and would be highly offended to the reference.  The are part of North Africa.  Our dear friend moved here from Tunisia 4 years ago and everyone calls him mideastern.  He says he is a proud North African.  Yes they speak Arabic, but have a huge French influence and is about 30 miles across the Sea to Italy.  ( US had a base on an island there during WW11)  I had a discussion a couple weeks ago about Libya and wondered what his country thought of it.  They share a border.  He says they have always thought Gaddafi was a crazy man and always the brunt of their jokes.  It was fascinating to talk to him about all of this.  Tunisia is a "lets make love not war" country.  He was very worried about his family during the unrest that was part of the start of all these uprisings.  Their "president" of 30+ years sets bread prices, rules the military and police, etc.  They would love to get rid of him.    I don't think there will ever be an easy answer.   I don't like politics, but I hate the type of rulers these countries are under.    I worry about Hatem's family.  They stayed in their houses and could hear gunshots at night.  They don't live very far from the border and Libyans have been fleeing there.    It is all a sad situation.     @ Moosemom, you are absolutely right about the 2% oil from Libya. 

[Bill Peckham]

Libya and Egypt are not in the Middle East and would be highly offended to the reference.  The are part of North Africa.  Our dear friend moved here from Tunisia 4 years ago and everyone calls him mideastern.  He says he is a proud North African.  Yes they speak Arabic, but have a huge French influence and is about 30 miles across the Sea to Italy.  ( US had a base on an island there during WW11)  I had a discussion a couple weeks ago about Libya and wondered what his country thought of it.  They share a border.  He says they have always thought Gaddafi was a crazy man and always the brunt of their jokes.  It was fascinating to talk to him about all of this.  Tunisia is a "lets make love not war" country.  He was very worried about his family during the unrest that was part of the start of all these uprisings.  Their "president" of 30+ years sets bread prices, rules the military and police, etc.  They would love to get rid of him.    I don't think there will ever be an easy answer.   I don't like politics, but I hate the type of rulers these countries are under.    I worry about Hatem's family.  They stayed in their houses and could hear gunshots at night.  They don't live very far from the border and Libyans have been fleeing there.    It is all a sad situation.     @ Moosemom, you are absolutely right about the 2% oil from Libya. 

It depends which numbers you use, the US used 19.1 million barrels a day of "petroleum and non-petroleum liquid fuels" in 2010
 http://www.eia.doe.gov/steo/ about 44% were imported.
Libya supplied 71,000 bbl/d
http://www.eia.doe.gov/countries/cab.cfm?fips=LY
which is less than one percent of either the total used or the total imported.

They did get rid of him. The Tunisian leader, Ben Ali, fled to Saudi Arabia right? Tunisia kicked this remarkable period off, now they're just about out of the news. Does your friend have hopes for a new future? Has anything changed?

[paris]

I know, Bill. Thanks for adding that -- I was on a bit of a rant!!    Yes, Hatem says his family is seeing change.  The foods are readily available, military is stable, and the people feel better about life in general.  It is interesting how quickly Tunisia was forgotten by the news and many now think Egypt was the beginning of the unrest.  But, many couldn't have told you where Tunisia was in the first place.   Facebook was a huge source of information for Tunisia and Egypt.  Who would think that a social network could play such a big part in all of this?    Hatem does not want to go back to live in Tunisia; he enjoys his life in America, even though he faces racism and judgement here.   Thanks for asking, Bill.   

Think I will go back to some of the lighter threads  LOL-----I'm not good with politics and policies!!! 

[paris]

@ Bill, I talked with Hatem today about how things are right now.   He said the Prime Minister is in control.  There is still unrest in the area of Tunis. That is where most of the uprising took place.  They are looking forward to elections and the majority want a country that is not based on religion.  They want honest elections and freedom of religion --- basics.  He is also very proud of his countrymen for standing up to their government.  It all started when a man with several degrees couldn't find a job, so he was selling fruit from a cart. The government controlled the food supplies, so this was against the law. He set himself on fire in protest .... and so the protests in North Africa started.      Bill, you are one of the smartest people I know and I always respect your posts.  You know what you are talking about!