An Interview With Ezekiel Emanuelwashingtonpost.com
Before Ezekiel Emanuel joined his brother Rahm in the White House, he was director of the National Institute of Health's clinical bioethics programs and an oncologist specializing in breast cancer. Since he began advising President Obama's budget chief, Peter Orszag, on health care, however, he's become a surprisingly high-profile figure. A recent New York Post article dug through his academic papers and branded Emanuel one of Obama's "deadly doctors," accusing him of everything from wanting to refuse health care to the elderly to wanting to let the developmentally disabled perish. Reached in Italy this week, the man the New Republic called "the nicest" Emanuel brother struck back at his critics, explained what a bioethicist does and revealed his foodie side. An edited transcript of our conversation follows.
We've heard harsh accusations in the health-care debate lately, including Sarah Palin's contention that you want "death panels" and Rep. Virginia Foxx's charge that Democrats want "to put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government." So, do you want to euthanize my grandmother?
No. I've never met your grandmother. I'm sure she's a lovely lady.
Anybody else's grandmother?
No. I'm on record against legalizing euthanasia and assisted suicide for over a decade now. As you know from my Atlantic article.
I actually read that article in preparation for this interview. It made me rethink my position on euthanasia.
Wow! I've succeeded as an academic. That's fantastic!
So how did all this get started?
You're asking me? I'm just the victim here. All I know is the New York Post ran a article attacking me. I think lots of people decided it might be an easy way to kill health-care reform.
The New York Post quoted a 1996 article you wrote saying that some people believe health-care resources shouldn't go to those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens." What was your point?
I was examining two different, abstract philosophical positions to see what they might offer in the context of redoing the health-care system and trying to reduce resource consumption in health care. It's as abstractly philosophical as you can get on a practical question. I qualified it in 27 different ways, saying it wasn't my view.
Before you joined the White House, you were a bioethicist. What does a bioethicist do?
Worries about some of the hardest questions society has to face. One of the quotes in the New York Post came from an article we recently published in the Lancet where the question we were confronting may be the most difficult question the health-care system faces every day. We don't have enough solid organs for transplantation; not enough kidneys, livers, hearts, lungs. When you get a liver and you have three people who need it, who should get it? We tried to come up with an ethically defensible answer. Because we have to choose.
Our system is expensive in part because we've refused to choose, because we've refused to answer some of these questions, like how we deal with end-of-life care, or what minimum benefits should be guaranteed to every American. But isn't not answering those questions a sort of answer, too?
Yeah. You can't avoid these questions. Even if you don't provide an overt justification for them, you end up making decisions. Sometimes those aren't good decisions, or they're decisions you regret. We had a big controversy in the United States when there were a limited number of dialysis machines. In Seattle, they appointed what they called a "God committee" to choose who should get it, and that committee was eventually abandoned. Society ended up paying the whole bill for dialysis instead of having people make those decisions.
Many see the health-care system as aimed at preventing death, and whenever someone dies, that's a failure. So we don't build in options around death because that would be admitting the possibility of failure.
Having been an oncologist and having cared for scores, if not hundreds, of dying patients, when you don't have a treatment that can shrink the tumor and the patient will die, it's a very difficult conversation. It's emotionally draining. Then to talk to the family and figure out how to give the best quality of life in the final weeks or months -- those are hard decisions.
You've argued that one of the reasons we've had trouble achieving universal health care is that we don't have an agreed-upon ethical system for health care. As such, we don't argue from common premises and no one trusts each other.
Issues that we cannot seem to resolve in our society reflect a lack of shared values. The situation around Terri Schiavo was a deeply held conflict over what to do if someone isn't going to return to consciousness or competence. Who will decide? Even there, where we had settled legal rules, we still had disagreement. We're torn about these things.
Are the bills under consideration dealing with these problems?
Fifteen years ago, I thought that cost growth meant we would have to confront the rationing question. But the more I studied it, the less I think rationing of health care is the key question. The bigger question seems to be improving the quality and efficiency of the system. We have a lot of unnecessary care. The big issue here is how to redesign the health-care delivery system so we're doing the appropriate data-driven care that we know will improve someone's life and not doing unnecessary, and potentially harmful, care.
So it's not rationing if you don't need it?
I think we have so much unnecessary care that's not improving quality of life or length of life, that our first order of business is to get rid of that. That, we can all agree on. We need to change incentives, change how doctors behave and make decisions, so they're more focused on what the data shows.
To switch gears, you're a foodie.
We're going from euthanasia and rationing to food?
Washington isn't known for being friendly to your kind. What's your favorite restaurant here?
A series of great meals at Cafe Atlantico. A quasi-Minibar they made for me was wonderful. I was there two weeks ago. They served about six or eight hors d'oeuvres, and then they had this series of small entrees that were spectacular. The crescendo was a duck confit that was brilliant.
I hear you're also trying to change how the federal government eats.
President Obama, about two months ago, had a number of CEOs of major American corporations explain how they improve the health and wellness of their workforce. I was charged with applying their ideas to the federal workforce. One of their ideas was to change the food and nutrition available to workers. Both at cafeterias and vending machines, giving them healthier options and subsidizing more nutritious foods, but also making available to them better foods they can bring home through farmers markets.
What is your brother Rahm's favorite food?
Good question. I don't know, actually.
I've heard it's the still-beating hearts of his enemies.
Oh, my brother is a lovely person. He doesn't do any of that.
One last question: If you're lying and you do create any death panels, can you put in a good word for me?
Ezra, you're at the top of my list.
I guess that can mean a lot of different things.
...............
"So it's not rationing if you don't need it?"
Excellent, excellent question.
His answer really didn't address it. This really is a challenging question- not just on a political level-- but purely on a medical level.
"Waste" is determined at a population level. Treatment is determined at an individual level. A large study may suggest patients from a given patient population with certain baselines characteristics responds better to X than Y. Or no response at all. But when an individual patient and doctor are deermining treatment options, their particular situation is somewhat different, in some fashion, from the "average" patient in the study. At a population level, the correct treatment option is clear. But if YOU'RE the patient, the correct treatment option is a lot less clear.
When you translate this medical quandary into a political question, I'm not sure you can get away from "reducing waste" not being perceived as rationing. At least not in our current "me first" culture.
Posted by: wisewon | August 14, 2009 3:00 PM | Report abuse
PS No question on universal vouchers? It'd be good to highlight the best option for universal health care.
Posted by: wisewon | August 14, 2009 3:01 PM | Report abuse
Ezra, Can you provide a link to Ezekiel Emanuel's work on improving the diet of State employees? As an employee of a State University Hospital, the amount of sugar, fat, and salt in the cafeteria is atrocious. I look forward to a change in policy.
Posted by: alessandra_barbadoro | August 14, 2009 3:23 PM | Report abuse
Much as I miss the Prospect Blog, interviews like these really make a case that the move to the WaPo has its benefits.
Posted by: MosBen | August 14, 2009 3:27 PM | Report abuse
Palin has no interest in health care reform. She is just a stooge for the Republican party. And each of her latest statements contains distortions and lies. There are related posts at
http://iamsoannoyed.com/?page_id=588Posted by: carlyt | August 14, 2009 3:51 PM | Report abuse
That was a reasonably good interview.
'wisewon' commenting above targets two valid points: the question of vouchers is an option worth exploring and the question of 'Who decides' must somehow be addressed.
The 'settled rules' mentioned, are, sadly, from the start of the past century: at the time, women could not vote, the blood of 'races' could not co-mingle, and it was decided that the "principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes [of an unwilling patient]."
The question of rationing was nicely dodged, but also must be answered. The CS Monitor has been following the 'Do We Have Enough Doctors?' topic, and to date I've only seen carefully-crafted answers in the negative suggesting that [in paraphrase] 'People who in the past used physicians' time would be encouraged to utilize the services of nurse practitioners and lesser other-than-trained-physician staff members'.
In a nutshell, when you asked "Are the bills under consideration dealing with these problems?" you received a tactful answer 'No.'
The answers you received are probably the most sincere that I've read to date, and they are truly appreciated.
Perhaps we need to consider this whole health insurance reform issue a bit more: argument actually seems to be bringing valid ideas and concerns to public and legislative attention, with a small (and ultimately short-lived) penalty of some hot-headed angry words. Before creating yet another program to join the failures of Medicare and Medicaid, programs which even the President describes as "unsustainable", shouldn't we think -- actively think -- a bit more?
Even you, Ezra, have changed your position a bit in the course of the discussion: those of us not as intellectually agile as you might need some time to catch up. The only reason for haste seems to be some sort of misguided partisan warfare tactic... 'let's do this before people vote us out' versus 'let's do this so people will vote them out'.
Posted by: rmgregory | August 14, 2009 3:54 PM | Report abuse
"So it's not rationing if you don't need it?"
Ah, but you can't assess "need." You evaluate an expensive procedure with a low success rate as "unnecessary" simply because not everyone benefits from it. For the people who *do* benefit from it, the same procedure is LIFE-SAVING.
By simply declaring it "unnecessary," you rationalize the rationing. IT IS RATIONING. You're intellectually dishonest, Ezra.
You take the one entity who arbitrates whether care is appropriate -- the one to whom doctors and insurers alike are all accountable -- and have it ration care on the basis that what is currently medically justifiable care is suddenly "unnecessary."
A person can get the procedure from his doctor. A person can get the procedure from his insurer. But you can't get the procedure from government: It's "unnecessary." Translation: RATIONING.
Posted by: whoisjohngaltcom | August 14, 2009 4:03 PM | Report abuse
We are not talking about rationing health care, we are talking about rational health care.
When the Mayo Clinic can attain BETTER results at half or three-fourths the cost, when Kaiser Bay Area can reduce costs for cardiac care and at the same time the knock heart disease from its historic spot as the number one cause of death, and when almost every developed country can deliver health care for half to three-quarters what we do and get better results. Something is wrong.
Wisewon is right that every patient is different. But to some extent, that is an excuse, since as a doctor I also know that all patients are also the same. If they weren't medical care would be an impossible crap shoot.
Perhaps the best example we have is management of high blood pressure, one of the most common problems we have in the US. A few years ago, a very large study showed that the best steps to manage high blood pressure involved generic drugs that cost less than $100 a year. Last year, the scientists returned to the topic and found that many Americans were not receiving those treatments, but instead getting expensive proprietary drugs that had been proven less effective and more dangerous.
As long as we use meaningingless slogans rather than facts to govern health care, we are giving in to the forces that see health care as a cash machine rather than as a way to help people.
If you honestly believe that Mayo is doing a bad job at health care, then the comments higher on this thread make sense. If you do not, then they are just rhetoric designed to preserve a system that will bankrupt us at the same time that it denies many Americans the health care it needs.
Posted by: PatS2 | August 14, 2009 5:38 PM | Report abuse
Yawn. Now all you have to do is explain why all these insurance companies keep approving all these "irrational" procedures.
All I hear about is how they won't approve care if your hangnail is a pre-existing condition, yet all of a sudden now the problem is that insurance companies are approving too much "unnecessary" medicine. You can actually reconcile these inconsistencies? Knock yourself out.
It's to be rationed. Exactly as I described.
Posted by: whoisjohngaltcom | August 14, 2009 6:16 PM | Report abuse
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel hasn't told OMB anything about Advance Care that Newt Gingrich hasn't proposed himself.
See:
http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/20317-newt-gingrich-advance-directive-advocate/Posted by: MikeLicht | August 14, 2009 6:20 PM | Report abuse
"PS No question on universal vouchers? It'd be good to highlight the best option for universal health care.
"
Well there's a subsidy in HR3200 for low-income people buying from the health insurance exchange. That's essentially a "voucher" but based on income.
Posted by: bluegrass1 | August 14, 2009 8:40 PM | Report abuse
Oh, and individual vouchers would be a lot more expensive than vouchers or subsidies on the health insurance exchange, because the insurance would be more expensive than with the HIE's negotiated rates. Either that or the voucher/subsidy would cover less of the insurance cost. Either way the HIE is a better deal for those seeking individual insurance.
Posted by: bluegrass1 | August 14, 2009 8:42 PM | Report abuse
"It's to be rationed."
All finite resources must be rationed. Some just want the rationing to be by price. Others want low-income people to live as long (and be productive for as long) as high-income people.
Posted by: bluegrass1 | August 14, 2009 8:46 PM | Report abuse
How about reciprocity in organ donation? In other words, if you sign up to be a donor, and at some point in the future end up needing an organ yourself, then you get higher priority on the waiting list than someone who did not sign up to donate? It seems reasonable that those willing to accept an organ from someone else should also be willing to give one of their own if it came to that. This would encourage more people to sign up as donors who wouldn't sign up otherwise, greatly increasing the supply of organs and so saving many lives. There likely wouldn't be much if any net harm done to those who still choose not to donate, since those who do choose to donate will have added to the number of available organs at any given time, and so even if you're lower on the list than you would be otherwise, you'll still have about the same chance of getting an organ in time because the supply will be commensurately higher--though you still can improve your chances by agreeing to donate yourself. If there are donors who object to being given priority and wish do donate solely altruistically, they can be allowed to opt out of the priority privilege.
Doing a quick Google search it seems that there have been some proposals to do something like this, but I don't know what the public acceptance of such a reciprocal donation system would be. Any thoughts?
Posted by: bluegrass1 | August 14, 2009 8:56 PM | Report abuse
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