I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: Transplant Discussion => Topic started by: stauffenberg on January 01, 2008, 09:23:54 AM
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Sorry, but my donor story is not so touching. He wrote to me about four months ago saying he was in financial trouble and asking me for money. I sent him $1000 and wished him good luck. Now he has taken to calling me repeatedly at about 5 AM asking for more money, this time not because he is in financial trouble, but because he needs money for his sister. Sometimes he says she's sick, which I grant could be expensive, but then other times he says she's dead, which should be cheaper in the long run. Given his changing stories he tells I am beginning to wonder if he even has a sister.
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Sorry, but my donor story is not so touching. He wrote to me about four months ago saying he was in financial trouble and asking me for money. I sent him $1000 and wished him good luck. Now he has taken to calling me repeatedly at about 5 AM asking for more money, this time not because he is in financial trouble, but because he needs money for his sister. Sometimes he says she's sick, which I grant could be expensive, but then other times he says she's dead, which should be cheaper in the long run. Given his changing stories he tells I am beginning to wonder if he even has a sister.
That is a nightmare. Is there anything legally you can do?
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Sorry, but my donor story is not so touching. He wrote to me about four months ago saying he was in financial trouble and asking me for money. I sent him $1000 and wished him good luck. Now he has taken to calling me repeatedly at about 5 AM asking for more money, this time not because he is in financial trouble, but because he needs money for his sister. Sometimes he says she's sick, which I grant could be expensive, but then other times he says she's dead, which should be cheaper in the long run. Given his changing stories he tells I am beginning to wonder if he even has a sister.
How did you know your donor? I wouldn't give anyone money under those circumstances. It was suggested to us that any request/demands be handled through a third party and not directly. I would be very careful. To give the donor money might be considered to be a violation of the law, "It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly acquire, receive, or otherwise transfer any human organ for valuable consideration for use in human transplantation."
This is a good topic to explore.
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Sorry, but my donor story is not so touching. He wrote to me about four months ago saying he was in financial trouble and asking me for money. I sent him $1000 and wished him good luck. Now he has taken to calling me repeatedly at about 5 AM asking for more money, this time not because he is in financial trouble, but because he needs money for his sister. Sometimes he says she's sick, which I grant could be expensive, but then other times he says she's dead, which should be cheaper in the long run. Given his changing stories he tells I am beginning to wonder if he even has a sister.
I'm sorry your so gullable. Why would you send money period? That's just dumb. :twocents;
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Obviously I feel indebted to my donor, so I don't mind in principle helping him if he really needs help, and I also know for a fact that he is poor. Why not help him? He helped me in a way worth more than any amount of money! I just don't like the idea that he may not really need the money as help but might instead just view me as an easy mark for exploitation.
As to the legal issues, the law usually requires a payment to be either in advance of the fulfilment of a contract or simultaneous with it to count as a consideration. In this case, since I already have this person's kidney, it would be difficult to argue that I was paying him for the kidney, since I already have what I am being deemed to purchase, so purchase is impossible.
There are some interesting complications of contract law on this point, however. Thus in the famous Spartan Steel case, a company had contracted to provide builders with the steel necessary for construction project in return for a certain amount of money, which was paid. However, the supply of steel was delayed and the steel company then proposed to the builders that they could get the steel to them on time if the builders paid even more money, but since the steel company had already been paid to get the steel to the builders on time, what were the builders getting for paying this extra money to have a contract fulfilled for which they had already paid? Courts in various common law jurisdictions have taken various views of cases like this, with some holding that there is really something being bought here -- that is, on time delivery in changed circumstances -- which was not already bought in the original contract, which was on time delivery in the original circumstances. In the case of the kidney transplant, however, there still seems to be nothing I could be buying by paying my donor money now.
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In the case of the kidney transplant, however, there still seems to be nothing I could be buying by paying my donor money now.
Keep rationalizing all you want.
Salamat po.
8)
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Stauffenberg, you have kind of taken us all by surprise. You are the most rational person here, but this just doesn't sound like you. Was your donor a family member? I feel like we are missing a piece of the puzzle----- of course, it isn't really or business, but you have us curious.
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Your kindness and gratitude are plausible but must have limited. Who know I may do the same if I have extra $ in my pocket.
I did in fact send a nice box of chocolate to my donor family. Thanks for sharing with us.
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There's a big difference between sending a gift to the donor and feeling extorted for funds.
Unless the donor's personal health was compromised by the kidney removal, in which case you might feel obligated to arrange some assistance, I think you should NOT be manipulated to fix his financial problems. This is exactly why so many transplant centers turn down unrelated donors because they anticipate problems down the road where the recipient will feel guilty and can be easy prey for an unscrupulous donor.
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How can you tell if this person really needs what he is asking for, or just playing on emotions?
I really don't know what I would do if I was in your position. I guess no one would know until it happens to them.
How can you not help someone that has given you a gift of a better life. It is easy to say this couldn't happen to me.
But until faced with something like this no one knows what they would do.
Good Luck Stauffenberg. You should be enjoying your new lease on life instead of this.
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How can you tell if this person really needs what he is asking for, or just playing on emotions?
I really don't know what I would do if I was in your position. I guess no one would know until it happens to them.
How can you not help someone that has given you a gift of a better life. It is easy to say this couldn't happen to me.
But until faced with something like this no one knows what they would do.
Good Luck Stauffenberg. You should be enjoying your new lease on life instead of this.
I can tell you right now I would not send any money. So, to answer your "I guess no one would know until it happens to them", I do know. It is not our responsibility to now be obligated to help them financially, especially when the problems arising have NOTHING to even do with the transplant itself. Donor's know this before hand, or at least they should know this.
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You're a very kind-hearted person. Unfortunately, it sounds like your donor is taking advantage of you. Is it possible he has a drug habit to support? This sounds like something an addict would do
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Although I believe that I would have to be in this situation to say what I would do, from where I sit right now I can't believe what I have read from you stauffenberg. :o
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I can't believe what I have read from you stauffenberg. :o
I thought I had you worked out Stauffenberg. I was wrong. Your post has really surprised me.
Maybe you are made more of marshmallow than I gave you credit. ;) Either way I think you have been an easy target to extort money.
Could you please give us a little more information on how your donor came into your life? It all seems very shady. ???
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I don't think we know enough to be passing judgment just yet, either on stauffenberg or his donor.
What if someone had saved you from a burning building? And then came to you later and said he was down on his luck and needed help? One option would be to say that he chose of his own free will to run into that burning building, the fact that he is down on his luck has nothing to do with you or the fire, and you don't "owe" him anything. Besides, if you give him money once, he'll just keep asking forever. On the other hand, you might think, "he did me a good turn, now I have a chance to do something for him." Ideally, that would be just what he needed to get back on his feet, he would be grateful, you would feel good, and everybody would be happy. Of course, that's the ideal scenario. It could play out differently: Your rescuer might think, "well, he was a soft touch," and then keep asking for more money. This would put you in uncomfortable position, because you would feel you had to say "No" at some point. However, I think that this falls short of criminal behavior; asking for help is not a crime, as far as I know. If you say No, he might just go away, or he might say, "I saved your life, now you owe me." This may well be inappropriate and would certainly be in bad taste, but again, not necessarily a crime in my book. After all, if trying to put someone on a guilt trip was a crime, then all the mothers in the world would be incarcerated, right? :). OR, he might say, "give me money or I'll burn your house down." Now THAT would be extortion, and now you would be justified in going to the police. If you called the police before that point, I think they would just tell you to grow a spine and tell the guy to get lost.
My point is that we just don't know enough about stauffenberg's story to be passing judgment. We don't know if the donor simply asked for help and now is guilty of being a nuisance (not unlike some brothers-in-law) or if he has made threats, or what.
It also bothers me that what could have simply been a compassionate and charitable act on stauffenberg's part is now being construed as stupidity or worse. Ideally, the kidney was a gift freely given, and the money that stauffenberg gave was just the same -- a gift freely given out of compassion and a desire to help. Granted, the scenario may not be playing out that way, but that doesn't mean that what stauffenberg did was wrong.
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Stauff,
Was you transplant done in America, or was this a purchased organ overseas? Not passing judgement, but I believe it does make a difference regarding the legalities of remuneration.
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Actually, at the time of the transplant I had already planned to give my donor a gift of $1000 on the anniversary of the operation every year for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, he moved after the transplant and I lost touch with him and could not find him to give him the gift I had planned. Then, about two and a half years after the transplant, he got in touch with me to say he was in financial trouble and needed money if I could spare any to help him out. So, since I had already planned to give him a gift every year in any case, I simply sent him the money then, about six months early for that year's anniversary, though a year and a half late from the time when I had originally planned to start sending my regular tokens of appreciation. Up to that point I was completely fine with the whole situation.
If is only recently, now that he has begun calling again with a new and rather less plausible series of stories about why he needs more money, that I have become bothered by the feeling of being taken for granted. He has never threatened me and at worst he is just a minor nuisance, and his persistence is in part my fault, since I have been reluctant to tell him clearly that I don't intend to give him any more money than I have for this year. He has not called now for about a week, but if he calls again I will simply say that I feel I have been generous enough for now and that he should seek help elsewhere.
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My kidney was from a cadaver.
In the big picture, the kidney did give u a new lease in life and ability to earn the big bucks. So all and all I could see reason why u. made the decison.
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Thanks for replying Stauffenburg. I knew there had to be a logical reason. Your idea was very admirable. You were trying to honor the donor and instead, now, he seems to expect too much. Hope you can work it all out.
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It's the changing story and the 5 am calls that make me say "hmmmm." Even if he's in a different time zone from you, it isn't that hard to figure out what time it is on the other end of the line. I make that simple calculation every week when I check in with my parents. Is he calling at this time to catch you off guard because you aren't really awake?
What's with the reincarnation of his sister? If she's really sick, can he provide any plausible evidence to let you know your money is really going where he says it's going? While I applaud your willingness and ability to help him, if he isn't connnig you, he should be able to you some concrete information that you can verify. Maybe I'm just jaded and don't trust what anyone says anymore.
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Agreed. The changing stories certainly sound shady, and I would certainly NOT be in favor of giving him more money at this point. Since stauffenberg did not indicate that he had responded to the man's ongoing requests by actually sending any money, I assumed that he, very sensibly, had not. I think that that would clearly be a mistake. My problem was with what I perceived to be the implication that stauffenberg was foolish or stupid to even try to help the guy in the first place. Now, in light of what has happened, stauffenberg's trust has clearly been abused, but he had no reason to necessarily expect that result from what could have been a truly admirable act of charity to a fellow human being, particularly one who helped him in an hour of need.
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We were fortunate that Jenna's donor was so generous and it took some real arm twisting to get her to even accept reimbursement for her air travel, hotel and rental car. When we did send her the check she passed it on to a less fortunate couple in her town who had medical problems. But of course, if she ever needs anything she can count on us, no matter what.
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Thank you for opening up this chapter in your Life book . I believe it took a lot of guts to state this in this forum knowing
there was the possibility of getting some flak from some of the readers .
We are here to help and learn on this forum and I have done that .
Someone else in the future may read theses posts thinking of doing the same thing and
it may help them . Or the feedback may help you stay Strong against this person .
You did not have to make your statement , You did though and someone will benefit.
Katonsdad
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Stauffenberg, I don't know if you sent anymore to this guy after the first $1000, and I don't know if you plan on continuing to send him the money each year like you had planned. If you ARE still planning on making the yearly gift, get him on the phone on your terms - you call him. Tell him straight out what you plan to do. Let him know that this is something you had planned to do all along, but you had lost touch for the first couple of years. If you have not sent any beyond the first $1000, offer to send him a little extra for the next two or three years in order to "catch up". Then take him back down to the $1000 per year. Make it clear to him that this is something you are doing as a thank you for your new lease on life, or whatever reason you want to give him. Make sure he understands, though, that you will not be able to afford any extra gifts in between your yearly anniversary, and if you feel at any time he is taking advantage of you (asking for more for this "dead sister"), then the yearly gifts stop.
This, of course, is how I would handle it. You do what you believe is best, but I think you need to put your foot down or this man is going to continue calling and trying to get more money out you. Best of luck.
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As to the legal issues, the law usually requires a payment to be either in advance of the fulfilment of a contract or simultaneous with it to count as a consideration. In this case, since I already have this person's kidney, it would be difficult to argue that I was paying him for the kidney, since I already have what I am being deemed to purchase, so purchase is impossible.
In the case of the kidney transplant, however, there still seems to be nothing I could be buying by paying my donor money now.
Sure you could, it's called lay-away and a payment plan.
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It sounds like a difficult position to be in. I hope you figure it out. :)
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Thanks for all your advice and comments. I have not paid him any money since receiving his phone calls, and I have not yet decided whether I should continue with my original plan to send him $1000 a year on the anniversary of the transplant or not, given that he seems to view thiis gift as an invitation to exploit me rather than as the expression of gratitude I intended it to be.
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Sure does sound like your paying him for that transplant... but that just how I see it.
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By that logic, if you give your parents a Christmas present, you are buying their affection! The relation in both that example and in the case of gifts to the transplant donor is the same: you are not paying to get what you already have received, which is impossible, but to show your appreciation for what you were given.
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Stauffenberg, I love that you showed us a completely different side of you. You do have a very warm and fuzzy side!! You may have blown your cover as our resident voice of reason!! Thanks for opening up a very private subject. :cuddle;
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I respect your view on it. I just see it differently.
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Actually, at the time of the transplant I had already planned to give my donor a gift of $1000 on the anniversary of the operation every year for the rest of my life.
And if the kidney failed in a few years, were you to continue with your gifts beyond that point?
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Why not? The gratitude for the gift remains constant, whatever happens to the graft, which is beyond the donor's control in any case.
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I am sorry but this seems like one big SCAM, you need to be careful, and just because they decided to give you a kidney, does not mean that you are their personal ATM, please stop sending them money!!
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Now he has taken to calling me repeatedly at about 5 AM asking for more money ...
About 6 PM in Manila.
Magandang gabi po.
Salamat po.
8)
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Could you please give us a little more information on how your donor came into your life? It all seems very shady. ???
Could you make it a little simpler for me? What country was your transplant done in? And did you go through Mitch to get it?
I am not passing judgment on you either just trying to understand the request for money. If money originally passed hands for the transplant, then the donor obviously thinks you have more to give.
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Someone made the related comment earlier that these payments post-transplant could be deemed to be payments for the transplant on an installment plan. But if you consider how an installment plan works, you will see that this is impossible in the case of a kidney transplant. First, the person from whom you buy something on an installment plan needs insurance that you will not default on the payments, and this insurance exists in the form of his right to repossess the goods purchased which you have in your possession. But with a kidney, it would be impossible and an illegal assault for the vendor to take the kidney back out of your abdomen, so without the insurance of the possibility of repossession, no kidneys could be sold on installment. Second, a sale of something on installment requires the backing of the judicial system, which will enforce the contractual obligation of the buyer to continue paying the installments or forfeit the purchased item. But no court will enforce a contract to purchase a body part, since such a contract, being against public policy, would be void, so again, there is no way to sell a kidney on the installment plan.
From this it follows that post-transplant payments can only be gifts, not purchase money.
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There seems to be a lot of the story that you're leaving out, I know you're grateful for his gift but an annual monetary gratuity, I think thats just plain NUTS! though, my sister(my donor) thinks its a great idea. :sarcasm;
Thanks for all your advice and comments. I have not paid him any money since receiving his phone calls, and I have not yet decided whether I should continue with my original plan to send him $1000 a year on the anniversary of the transplant or not, given that he seems to view thiis gift as an invitation to exploit me rather than as the expression of gratitude I intended it to be.
Welcome back to the world of reason. Good luck in whatever you decide. :snowman;
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Stauffenburg,
Why are you dodging my question? If you are going to put the question out about payments, give us the FULL story.
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Someone made the related comment earlier that these payments post-transplant could be deemed to be payments for the transplant on an installment plan. But if you consider how an installment plan works, you will see that this is impossible in the case of a kidney transplant. First, the person from whom you buy something on an installment plan needs insurance that you will not default on the payments, and this insurance exists in the form of his right to repossess the goods purchased which you have in your possession. But with a kidney, it would be impossible and an illegal assault for the vendor to take the kidney back out of your abdomen, so without the insurance of the possibility of repossession, no kidneys could be sold on installment. Second, a sale of something on installment requires the backing of the judicial system, which will enforce the contractual obligation of the buyer to continue paying the installments or forfeit the purchased item. But no court will enforce a contract to purchase a body part, since such a contract, being against public policy, would be void, so again, there is no way to sell a kidney on the installment plan.
From this it follows that post-transplant payments can only be gifts, not purchase money.
Your argument implies that it would somehow be a legal arrangement. Since it is against the law to pay for a kidney, any sane person would not pay beforehand, and would not promise or agree to anything either.
If there was an "implied" promise, or a gentlemanly handshake and a verbal agreement, it could still be considered a purchase, even if money was collected after the fact. Anyway, I was just yanking your chain about the installment plan, Stauffenberg. I am sure you will do whatever is appropriate and prudent.
I would be cool to hear your whole transplant story someday.
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::)