I Hate Dialysis Message Board

Off-Topic => Political Debates - Thick Skin Required for Entry => Topic started by: Rerun on November 06, 2017, 02:58:52 PM

Title: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Rerun on November 06, 2017, 02:58:52 PM
What do you say?  Texas Strong....   Prayers..... Healing....  There are just no words for Evil.   We can't make guns just evaporate!

You can say "Thank God for the Neighbor good Guy with a gun"

This Idiot was not supposed to buy a gun.  The laws were there.  Do we tatoo them on the nose.  Big red dot?

Would he then go rent a Home Depot truck and plow then down when they were at the Pot Luck?

Is this our new Normal... when the crazies take over ?

Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Jean on November 06, 2017, 05:21:08 PM

It is indeed a horrible tragedy when people can not even go to church without something like this happening. Please people, please dont blame the gun laws on this one. He bought it undercover. He was just evil and that is it!!
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Simon Dog on November 06, 2017, 08:26:36 PM
Quote
This Idiot was not supposed to buy a gun.  The laws were there.  Do we tatoo them on the nose.  Big red dot?
He apparently bought the gun at a dealer.  The feds run NICS (National Instant Check System) in WV.   If the military had reported the dishonorable discharge to NICS, the dealer would have received a rejection on the sale as he was a prohibited person under 18 USC 922(g).

Did you notice it was an ordinary, unimportant, unconnected (i.e., person with no special privileges) who stopped the guy with two rounds from an AR15?
Quote
It is indeed a horrible tragedy when people can not even go to church without something like this happening.
Believe it or not, many TX churches require parishioners to be unarmed (an option allowed under TX code 30.06 and 30.07)
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: MooseMom on November 06, 2017, 09:56:14 PM
Oh, my God.  Think about that post...is it really unbelievable that many Texas churches require their parishoners to put away their weapons before they enter their place of worship?  Is there any other civilized country in which that would even be a question?  In which other nation is it just assumed that worshippers would be armed?

Is there anyone on this board who takes a firearm to church?

God is trying to tell us something.  Babies have been killed in Sandy Hook.  People in Las Vegas have been shot dead from a murderer shooting down from a hotel room like shooting fish in a barrel.  Twice, people have have been massacred in their Christian places of worship.  But we do nothing but pander to those who need to have their own private arsenal for their sad hobby.  God is telling us that we must stop this insanity, but we deliberately choose to ignore Him.

If it is indeed true that guns don't kill people but that it is people who kill people, then we need to do something about those people.  Since it is mostly men who kill with guns, then men should not have guns.  The are inherently violent and cannot be trusted.  Statistically, most white men who go on these shooting sprees are also domestic abusers.

The guy who shot the murderer was too late.  I would much rather the killer be taken alive so that he could rot in jail.  Death is too good and merciful.

Congress is never going to appropriate funding for better and more accessible health care for those who need it, so for Trump and Congress to warble on about this being a mental health issue is completely bs.

The US has a big domestic terrorism problem with white male extremists.  We need to call it what it is.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 07, 2017, 03:38:08 AM
The problem is the second admendment when it was written a well trained rifleman could fire a shot a minute.  The ar15 with a bumpstock fires a 100 round magazine in 12 seconds.  Equipped with one of theses military grade weapons on idiot today has the fire power of several hundred shooters from the time the second admendment was written.  The NRA has stopped any tightening of controls on gun purchases.  They even stopped the attempt to ban fire arm sales to people on the terror watch list.  If I lived next door to you and I collected explosives and had several hundred pounds of military grade explosives would you want me living next to you.  I personally am not against guns, but I object to two types of weapons, Saturday Night Specials and Military grade rifles. It's time for appropriate weapon restrictions.  I can't buy a switch blade but I can buy a automatic rifle capable of killing 58 people in minutes.  This year the gun massacres appear to be happening in states with few restrictions on who can buy a gun.  To tell the truth  my attitude is you want to allow loose gun laws in your state you will have to live with the bodies that will pile up.  What I really object to is the Presidunce and his boot licking Republican congressmen and Senators trying to force states to allow visitors to have the same carry rights as they have in their home states. 
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: iolaire on November 07, 2017, 05:49:51 AM
I partially support this tweet - I'm not against guns, but do want sound gun control.

Erica Buist‏ @ericabuist 
Why not just ban guns and when people are upset about it, just send them thoughts and prayers?
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 07, 2017, 07:06:46 AM
That is the best argument about gun control I have ever read? Thank you for sharing iolaire.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: smartcookie on November 07, 2017, 07:07:10 AM
I know of churches in my area (I can confirm at least three) who form security teams that carry concealed weapons to church just in case something like this happens.  The people who are allowed to carry are carefully selected to help protect the congregation.  You can't go anywhere anymore without fear.  It is a scary world. 
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: MooseMom on November 07, 2017, 07:28:39 AM
I know of churches in my area (I can confirm at least three) who form security teams that carry concealed weapons to church just in case something like this happens.  The people who are allowed to carry are carefully selected to help protect the congregation.  You can't go anywhere anymore without fear.  It is a scary world.


Oh my goodness!  Where in the world do you live?  Is your town so violent that you can't go anywhere anymore without fear?  Is your town a scary place?

Are your dialysis clinics patrolled by carefully selected security teams?  How about your concert venues?  Your schools?  Your local stores?  Your cinemas? 

Which came first, the violence or the guns?  Maybe everyone is so scared because everyone is armed? 
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: iolaire on November 07, 2017, 07:35:11 AM
And in other Texas news today:
http://www.syracuse.com/us-news/index.ssf/2017/11/texas_christian_university_shooting.html
Texas Christian University was placed on lockdown after a reported shooting on campus in Fort Worth, Texas.

NBC reports a shuttle bus driver at TCU opened fire on another bus driver after an argument around 7:30 a.m. Police say the suspected gunman missed the other driver, but bumped into the other driver while trying to drive a shuttle bus away from the scene.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Simon Dog on November 07, 2017, 08:10:56 AM
Quote
Think about that post...is it really unbelievable that many Texas churches require their parishoners to put away their weapons before they enter their place of worship?
It is unbelievable, especially when you consider the fact that a disproportionate number of mass shootings occur in "gun free zones".
Quote
The US has a big domestic terrorism problem with white male extremists.  We need to call it what it is.
Terrorism is generally the attempt to effect political or public policy change through the terrorization of innocents.  What political or public policy change are these white males attempting to accomplish?    Calling it what it is would be "mass murder".
Quote
I know of churches in my area (I can confirm at least three) who form security teams that carry concealed weapons to church
A Jewish friend was discretely requested by the temple leadership to carry when he attended services.
Quote
The problem is the second admendment when it was written a well trained rifleman could fire a shot a minute.
The same logic could be used to regulate internet and broadcast speech, while allowing persons with Guttenberg style presses to print without censorship.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 07, 2017, 08:19:46 AM
I have yet to see a news report kill over 50 people.  The content is protected but today the delivery systems are probably licensed and have other reasonable controls placed on them.  It would take hundreds of trained soilders from back them to equal the fire power in that church.  CNN is reporting that so much damage occurred in the church that it may need to be torn down.  They limit duck hunters to 5 shot magazines in most states but we allow people to walk around with almost unlimited fire power.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Rerun on November 07, 2017, 01:09:04 PM
A million babies are killed before they have a chance to live (in a year) in this country.  Maybe God is mad at that...  Ya think?  Women....

My church also has a team who has concealed weapons.  Mostly State Patrol members.

Churches, schools, movie theaters are called Soft Targets for a reason. 

There is on the news right now that a 2 year old is fighting for her life because Mom's boyfriend smacked her in the head and in the stomach for interrupting his video games....   He should be shot before he can go buy a gun.

 
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: kickingandscreaming on November 07, 2017, 02:36:32 PM
What an incredibly misogynistic thing to think/say  So somehow women are to blame for what men do!  And men aren't accountable at all.  Blame it all on God.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: iolaire on November 07, 2017, 07:24:44 PM
This is a long twitter thread re trained killers, domestic threats, violence twords women and yes guns. It's very worth a read.  The quote is a Facebook friend's comment on the thread.  Make sure you expand the thread to see all 59 tweets.

"Excellent thread on guns,  the military,  and our national blind spots. "
https://mobile.twitter.com/cmclymer/status/927757855113011200
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 07, 2017, 07:44:31 PM
Concealed weapons would be all but useless against someone in body armor, equipped with a assault rifle firing a circular 100round magazine in 12 seconds.  Not only did the moron kill 27 people he also had so much fire power the local building inspector  is considering condemning the building.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: smartcookie on November 08, 2017, 07:06:24 AM
I know of churches in my area (I can confirm at least three) who form security teams that carry concealed weapons to church just in case something like this happens.  The people who are allowed to carry are carefully selected to help protect the congregation.  You can't go anywhere anymore without fear.  It is a scary world.


Oh my goodness!  Where in the world do you live?  Is your town so violent that you can't go anywhere anymore without fear?  Is your town a scary place?

Are your dialysis clinics patrolled by carefully selected security teams?  How about your concert venues?  Your schools?  Your local stores?  Your cinemas? 

Which came first, the violence or the guns?  Maybe everyone is so scared because everyone is armed?

I live in South Carolina.  Hunting and guns are a way of life here.  It is not that there is more crime here then other places, most people just feel more comfortable having protection.  I haven't heard anyone complain, though, when told they cannot bring a weapon somewhere like a movie theater or government building.  Like I said, the security team is hush hush... the common church goer would not know that people carry.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: iolaire on November 08, 2017, 07:19:25 AM
I live in South Carolina.  Hunting and guns are a way of life here.  It is not that there is more crime here then other places, most people just feel more comfortable having protection.
But your state has the corresponding (to higher gun ownership) higher than average gun death rate, once you factor in accidents, suicide and the like at 15.60 deaths/year per 100,000 population.  Not as bad as Alaska my home state at 19.59 but much higher than the national average of 10.64 deaths/year per 100,000 population.

Stats 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_death_rates_in_the_United_States_by_state

This "opinion" piece has informative charts showing the relationship to high gun ownership and death rates, plus the relationship to stronger gun regulations and lower death rates:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html

I recommend reading it.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: smartcookie on November 09, 2017, 07:14:44 AM
That is a very interesting article, Iolaire!  Thank you for bringing that to my attention.  I would like to see more research in the area of making guns safer and what restricting guns to certain individuals would look like.  I do wonder if the type of population in my state has some to do with the higher than average gun rate death.  In many places in South Carolina, there is very real racial tension.  When the population is 50/50 black to white in many areas, people can clash and racial tendencies can be more apparent.  Also, SC is a poorer state with not as many opportunities for education and growth as say New York.  Funding for programs that help low income are hard to come by.  Pair these things with guns, and it can be a deadly combination.  Most people I know have guns, and many conceal carry with no issue whatsoever.  However, my clinic is in a bad part of town.  In the four years I have been here, I have been verbally harassed in the parking lot dozens of times (I am not talking about people asking for money or just saying hello... I have had people try to put curses on me for not giving them money or yelling at my patients).  There have been at least two shootings across the street during business hours.  For a while, one of the houses across the street was a crack house.  Of course, I am not allowed to carry any weapons or chemicals to defend myself, and that makes me wary.  This summer, we had a guy coming into our lobby and yelling at staff and patients.  He was arrested for exposing himself and we have trespassing warrant on this guy.  And he is not the first!  I don't even pretend to know what the answer is.  This is such a hard topic to discuss and I am torn in so many ways about gun control.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Simon Dog on November 09, 2017, 07:32:04 AM
I do wonder if the type of population in my state has some to do with the higher than average gun rate death.
This is a politically incorrect question that is racist to even ask  ::)

Quote
Most people I know have guns, and many conceal carry with no issue whatsoever.

About 5% of the adult population in MA has a gun license, and slightly over 90% of those allow concealed carry almost everywhere except federally prohibited places and schools/colleges, and unlike some states, a "no guns" sign at the entrance to a private business does not make carry a crime.  In fact, we have fewer restrictions on where a licensee may carry than in most "shall issue" southern states.

That being said, crime by carry license holders in MA is pretty much non-existent.
Quote
higher than average gun death rate, once you factor in accidents, suicide
I don't believe suicide should be a factor in the comparison, as it is the result of a choice, not a societal risk.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 09, 2017, 09:36:19 AM
I have yet to see a news report kill over 50 people.  The content is protected but today the delivery systems are probably licensed and have other reasonable controls placed on them.  It would take hundreds of trained soilders from back then to equal the fire power in that church.  CNN is reporting that so much damage occurred in the church that it may need to be torn down.  They limit duck hunters to 5 shot magazines in most states but we allow people to walk around with almost unlimited fire power.

Edited corrected back them to back then.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 09, 2017, 10:20:27 AM
Hunting is not just a right but a necessity.  We have killed off or reduced large predators on the east cost. The best example I know of is New Jersey where the deer and bear populatuion has exploded is the sate is having problem controlling the animal population cause when ever they schedule a hunt the tree hugger arive and interrupt the hunt.  Since I don’t know anyone hunting with a military grade weapon hunters need to be incuragedto keep the bears and deer numbers in check.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Simon Dog on November 09, 2017, 03:44:25 PM
It would take hundreds of trained soilders from back them to equal the fire power in that church.
SCOTUS has addressed this in Caetano vs. MA.   A woman was caught with an electric stun gun in a supermaket parking lot near me.    The defense appealed on 2A grounds, and the state of MA argued "stun guns did not exist at the time the 2A was drafted so they are not covered".  SCOTUS issued a GVR (Grant, Vacate and Remand) stating that the 2A did apply to stun guns, directing the case to be returned to state court for a decision consistent with that reasoning.   

I was particularly pleased with the ruling, since I was involved in hiring and paying the attorney who filed an amicus in this case.

It shows the extent of the anti-self defense mind set that they would use the resources of the state to argue before the Supreme Court to try to maintain a ban on a self defense device specifically designed to be non-lethal and a substitute, in some cases, for firepower.  In fact, the state argued that the woman could have simply obtained a license and carried a firearm instead of a stun gun.  (stun guns are still illegal in MA, even if you are licensed to carry a loaded .357 ... go figure)

Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 10, 2017, 01:06:31 PM
Do you need a 100 round in 12 seconds gun for self protection who are you protecting from the invading Russian army.  Personally I prefer a shotgun.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Charlie B53 on November 10, 2017, 07:07:35 PM

I believe it all boils down to individual RESPONSIBILITY.

Those of us raised with weapons, guns, hunting, have very deep seated sense of responsibility.  Many of us are also Veterans.  We take guns seriously.  No joke.

A lot of these younger people today don't seem to have much sense of RESPONSIBILITY.  Blaming anyone and everyone other than themselves for whatever happens.

Making the determination who is responsible and who isn't can be difficult. 

Rerun's idea of a red dot on the nose is pretty good.  How to decide WHO gets those dots is another question.  Our school system has a number of problems.

How can we assess everyone's mental health, sense of responsibility, and make a determination as to who can be trusted?
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: kristina on November 11, 2017, 06:46:29 AM

It is indeed a horrible tragedy when people can not even go to church without something like this happening. Please people, please dont blame the gun laws on this one. He bought it undercover. He was just evil and that is it!!

Here in England it is illegal to have a gun and ordinary citizens would not even know where to buy a gun, even if they feel endangered ...
We don't have any less crime and more and more often it is being reported in newspapers, radio etc., that criminals are having a gun or two ...
In short, thinking about it, it would almost appear as if criminals here have a better chance to protect themselves ... ?
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Simon Dog on November 11, 2017, 07:32:35 AM
Here in England it is illegal to have a gun and ordinary citizens would not even know where to buy a gun, even if they feel endangered ...
England has lost its mind.  I recently read of a contractor who was convicted of having "too many" utility knife blades attached to his toolbox.  There is a big problem with knife crime, and even governmental efforts to get people to turn in knives.   One person was ordered to remove a barb wire fence around his property as criminals could get hurt, and self defense of pretty much any kind is prohibited.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: MooseMom on November 12, 2017, 09:21:53 AM
I recently read of a contractor who was convicted of having "too many" utility knife blades attached to his toolbox. 

People in England recently read of a gunman in the United States who shot, killed and wounded a group of worshippers in their church in Texas.

People in England recently read of a gunman in the United States who, from a hotel window, shot, killed and wounded a group of concertgoers in Las Vegas. 

Which country has "lost its mind"?

There is a big problem with knife crime in the UK?  How do you define "big problem"?  Any "problem" with knife crime doesn't compare with the carnage caused by guns in the United States. 

Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 12, 2017, 01:12:55 PM
/a knife is a single kill at a time weapon comparing them to a weapon capable oshooting 100 people in 12 seconds is just a attempt to deflect attention away from the insane gun laws in the US.  I am not a ban all guns person just military grade weapons.  What the opponents of rational gun laws dont understand is sooner or later the carnage is going to keep getting worse then the voters will demand so protection and the net result could be banning all guns.  Remember the 2 admendment can be admended out of the constitution.  And at least once in our history a Supreme Court decision has been over turned pressed vs Ferguson, was replaced by the Little Rock school case,
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Simon Dog on November 12, 2017, 06:54:37 PM
Consider the following:

Who is safer?  Me when I go into Boston for dinner with the wife and am legally armed, or a Londener who goes into his city unarmed?   

If you answered "You may be the safer, but society in London is generally safer because commoners are unarmed", it illustrates that you subscribe to a collectivist rather than an individualist view regarding the relationship of this individual to society at large.    I personally am an individualist, but I respect that others may have equally sincerely held collectivist views.

Quote
And at least once in our history a Supreme Court decision has been over turned pressed vs Ferguson, was replaced by the Little Rock school case,
Don't forget the 3/5th compromise.

Quote
There is a big problem with knife crime in the UK?  How do you define "big problem"?
People cannot got out at night in London without fearing attack by knife armed criminals.   Remember the representative of a religion on peace who stabbed that guy in full view of helpless spectators?   In many parts of the US, the consequences of doing that would be ballistically induced subcutaneous apertures and the problem would be solved before the police could even get to the scene.

London now has "turn in your knife" boxes on streets with the slogan "Surrender you knife, save a life".
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 12, 2017, 09:04:37 PM
In every thing in life context is important.  Europe has been the scene of knife wielding jihadis attacking people and police,  the British ban is to allow the police to react at the sight of a knife,  this is caused by the unfortunate fact of discrimination against Moslems.  In the US the local Moslem community has been quietly informing on potential jihadis and all but a few have been stopped.  Remember the NRA has put a stop to the ban of weapon sales to people on the Terrorist Watch list.  I personally don’t fancy my chances against a nut with a AR15 and body armor and  me with a concealed carry permitted semi.    This doesn’t even include  the open sale of tannerite which means even if you hit the moron he or she could have a suiside vest on full of legal tannerite and blow the whole place to hell.  How much blood has to flow down the streets before sanity begins,  plus Romberg I have no problem with licemced gun carriers, again I am against 2 types of weapons, military grade rifles and cheap (Saturday Night) pistols.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: MooseMom on November 12, 2017, 09:39:15 PM
Simon Dog, mate, what are you on about?  I spend three weeks every year in London and all over the southeast of England,  and I can tell you for a bloody fact that I feel safer walking around in London than I would sitting next to you with your weapon!  What if you got drunk?  Got mad?  Didn't get good service, or your food was cold?  How do I know that you won't go all postal?  Or, what if the guy sitting at the table next to you got drunk, mad or unhappy with the service and decided to grab your gun and take it out on me?  Are you seriously asking that question?

People walk about at night all the time in London!  It's the greatest city in the world!  I don't know anyone who goes to the West End and fears getting gunned down at the theatre. 

But it's irrelevant because your post is classic "whataboutism".  "Oh, a bunch of worshippers got massacred by a gunman in Texas, but what about knife crime in London!"  Really?

I don't care about anyone's "sincerely held views" if those views make MY life scarier, and that's MY "individualist view".  I could go all "whatabout" here and point out that slaveowners had "sincerely held views", but then we'd be going around in circles.  Just because certain views are "sincerely held" does not make them worthy of respect.  I will ACKNOWLEDGE that someone has a sincerely held view, but if I think that view is dangerous or irresponsible, I'm not going to ignore it.

After school children were murdered in Dunblane, the UK cracked down on gun ownership.  When American schoolchildren are murdered, more people buy guns.  Why is that?
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Simon Dog on November 12, 2017, 10:37:37 PM
Quote
But it's irrelevant because your post is classic "whataboutism".
Funny thing, your entire speculation about me was "whataboutism".    If you knew me, you would know I don't get drunk, don't get into fights, and have a spotless record.  I did have a neighbor complain to the police about it once (simply because he knew I owned guns), and the cop who responded told the neighbor that the police wished they had more people like me in town.  Oh, and that cop had no problems with me being armed when we were out on social occasions.

There is no "whataboutism" that people in England are defenseless, and no "whataboutism" that a lifelong law abiding citizen stopped the TX cretin with his AR15.   (Only Foxnews headlined that; the other news orgs buried that inconvenient truth deep in the article, and did not mention the type of gun used by the good guy).
Quote
What if you got drunk?  Got mad?  Didn't get good service, or your food was cold?  How do I know that you won't go all postal?  Or, what if the guy sitting at the table next to you got drunk, mad or unhappy with the service and decided to grab your gun and take it out on me?  Are you seriously asking that question?
Let's see .... owned guns my entire life, had one brush with the law earlier this year when I overstayed the meter, but I paid the parking ticket and moved on.

My comment about "sincerely held views" was in reference to my respecting your right to a view point different than mine.

Funny thing about school shootings - in many (probably most) states schools are one of the few areas where civilian carry permits are invalid.  Schools in my state (MA) are one place you can be sure no legal gun owner will be carrying.   I guess that must make them the safest places in the state.
Quote
Remember the NRA has put a stop to the ban of weapon sales to people on the Terrorist Watch list.
The NRA has no objection to people adjudicated to be violent being denied firearms.  The problem is when the government starts maintaining a list of people who are denied a right, have no right to see the evidence against them, cannot confront their accuser in court, and no right to an appeal before an independent finder of fact.  Imagine if the police could revoke the driver's license of "known drunks" with no OUI arrest, trial or conviction... or if they were arrested, tried and found not guilty.

We sort of have what you seem to advocate in MA.    I recently reviewed a case where someone lost his gun rights because he was charged with a crime but not convicted.   He was a citizen with a spotless record; his accuser refused to testify since he (the accuser) was in jail awaiting trial for a drive-by shooting.   He had been charged with defending himself against an assailant with a record of assault with a deadly weapon.   There is another case where someone had the right taken away because be exercised his right to remain silent when quesitoned by police.
Quote
When American schoolchildren are murdered, more people buy guns.  Why is that?
Because people are afraid the govt will crack down and take the kind of guns they are buying off the market.  That is a serious answer, and explains why this happens.   When there was one day notice of a de-facto ban on sale of new AWs in MA, the line to even get into a gunshop after the end of the 9-5 workday was several hours long, and the shops stayed open until midnight when the ban took effect.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Michael Murphy on November 13, 2017, 06:05:52 AM
Two things if charged with a crime conditions of bond require you to turn over your weapons, if found innocent they should be returned.  The cops are not always right, innocent people are over charged, every day.  A law suit after a innocent verdict will teach them to sop that practice.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Simon Dog on November 13, 2017, 07:40:48 AM
Two things if charged with a crime conditions of bond require you to turn over your weapons, if found innocent they should be returned.  The cops are not always right, innocent people are over charged, every day.  A law suit after a innocent verdict will teach them to sop that practice.
1.   That is already the case in the Democratik People's Republic of MA, however, the police may keep the guns (more technically, not allow you to get them back) even if you are found not guilty.  The courts have held that the police need only "feel they had a reason".  Our state appellate court even upheld a decision that the right to own a firearm may be revoked for lifetime if one exercises their right to remain silent.   I know of what I speak, and write out about $100K in checks a year to fight this sort of thing.

2.   Absent overt fabrication of evidence, the police enjoy almost total protection against suits from innocent people who are charged.  Overcharging is a routine tool used to coerce a plea bargain.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: smartcookie on November 13, 2017, 08:09:53 AM
I do wonder if the type of population in my state has some to do with the higher than average gun rate death.
This is a politically incorrect question that is racist to even ask  ::)
Quote

I was talking about socioeconomic status.  Yes race is included in that, but not the only factor.  I was speaking from a sociological point of view.  If I was racist, I would not be able to do my job effectively. 
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: MooseMom on November 13, 2017, 08:47:59 AM
But Simon Dog, I DON'T know you.  When you take your gun and go out to dinner, your fellow diners don't know you, either.  Why do you assume that everyone would feel safe around you if they knew you were armed?  That's the core of your argument that I can't wrap my head around.

Yeah, I've heard your story about how your local police have told everyone that you're the good guy with a gun.  How many people in your neighborhood have you kept from being attacked or killed by an armed assailant?

The "good guy with a gun" in Texas didn't stop anyone from being killed.  His role in this incident has been inflated.  He shot the guy while he was getting away.  A lot of good THAT did.  And I saw MANY interviews with him and his gun on just about every media outlet I saw, and I don't watch Fox News.

How many "good guys" who were not policemen have stopped the armed "bad guys"?  How many armed citizens have been effective in stopping mass shootings?  Are there any published stats for that?

People in England aren't defenseless.  Good grief.

Do you honestly think that the US government is going to come around and take away everyone's guns?  Really?  THAT's your rationale for having an arsenal at your disposal?  This is fearmongering at its finest.  What is it about Americans that make them so prone to falling for this NRA yelling point?  Why do you buy into that sort of NRA propaganda that makes people buy MORE guns when babies have been gunned down?  What IS it with you people?  You all are not buying more guns because you want to be more able to defend babies, rather, as you have helpfully explained, people want to buy more guns because you think "the government" is going to come take your arsenals away.  That is just warped thinking, and it is very sad.  Furthermore, it's not making our country any safer.

And no, none of my post was anything close to "whataboutism" since I was the one sticking to the point, which is gun violence in the US.  I didn't attempt to deflect attention to knife crime in the UK.

Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: MooseMom on November 13, 2017, 08:57:54 AM
I would like to see more research in the area of making guns safer and what restricting guns to certain individuals would look like.
That would be a good idea, but the funding for more research probably would not be appropriated by this current Congress.  That's where the NRA's power comes into play; the NRA will fight any effort to restrict access to guns or to the types of guns that may be deemed illegal.

Quote
I do wonder if the type of population in my state has some to do with the higher than average gun rate death.  In many places in South Carolina, there is very real racial tension.  When the population is 50/50 black to white in many areas, people can clash and racial tendencies can be more apparent.  Also, SC is a poorer state with not as many opportunities for education and growth as say New York.  Funding for programs that help low income are hard to come by.  Pair these things with guns, and it can be a deadly combination.

I don't think this question is "politically incorrect" at all.  It's a very valid question, and thanks for asking it, smartcookie!  I don't know as much about your part of SC as you do, so what do YOU think?  Is there a lot of shootings in your state that are racially motivated?  When it comes to armed murder, do you think that racial tensions or socioeconomic hardship is the bigger motivation behind shootings?
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: smartcookie on November 13, 2017, 11:27:37 AM
I think race can be a factor, whether you are white or black.  You can't look at all the racially motivated shootings that have happened in the past two years and not think that.  More then that, though, I think economic status can be to blame.  People who do not have educational and financial opportunities are more likely to exhibit criminal behavior, no matter what race, ethnicity or whatever.  Not to say all poor and uneducated people become criminals, but when you need something essential for life, like say food, you might be more likely to steal just to survive.  Guns can be a way to make that survival happen.  The dialysis clinic I work at is located in a very poor section of town.  It can be a very scary area.  My manager had to call the police this morning because a mentally disturbed gentleman kept trespassing onto the property, peeping in windows and announcing loudly in the lobby that everyone needs to stop parking in his driveway (he lives across the street and thinks the parking lot is his driveway).  In the four years I have worked here, we have had two shootings in some apartments across the street during business hours and several outside of business hours.  I have never had that at other places I have worked.  It is just a scary world we live in.   
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Simon Dog on November 13, 2017, 01:18:11 PM
Quote
Why do you assume that everyone would feel safe around you if they knew you were armed?
If you don't know me fairly well, you will not know I am armed.   I'll just be a nondescript, non-violent person, getting lost in a crowd of one.

Quote
I think race can be a factor, whether you are white or black.
It is a huge factor.   I once had a cop say "any weapons" at a traffic stop.  I answered, he politely asked for my carry license, and concluded the stop with "You are exercising your right as an American to be armed and that is a good thing".    I was never nervous, or worried about getting perforated.   I certainly would have been in tremendous fear under the same situation if I were black.  Unfortunately, race and stereotypes remain a HUGE problem in this country.
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: Rerun on November 16, 2017, 04:18:46 PM
Any reasons..... that you can think of???

 :shy; 
Title: Re: Tragedy in Texas
Post by: cassandra on November 16, 2017, 10:30:36 PM
867 people killed by police in '17 (sofar)


  😷