I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Off-Topic => Off-Topic: Talk about anything you want. => Topic started by: aharris2 on April 16, 2007, 03:53:55 PM
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BLACKSBURG, Va. - A gunman opened fire in a Virginia Tech dorm and then, two hours later, shot up a classroom building across campus Monday, killing 32 people in the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history. The gunman committed suicide, bringing the death toll to 33.
Students bitterly complained that there were no public-address announcements on campus after the first burst of gunfire. Many said the first word they received from the university was an e-mail more than two hours into the rampage — around the time the gunman struck again.
Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said authorities believed that the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus.
"We had no reason to suspect any other incident was going to occur," he said.
He defended the university's handling of the tragedy, saying: "We can only make decisions based on the information you had on the time. You don't have hours to reflect on it."
Investigators offered no motive for the attack. The gunman's name was not immediately released, and it was not known if he was a student.
The shootings spread panic and confusion on campus. Witnesses reporting students jumping out the windows of a classroom building to escape the gunfire. SWAT team members with helmets, flak jackets and assault rifles swarmed over the campus. Students and faculty members carried out some of the wounded themselves, without waiting for ambulances to arrive. A student used his cell-phone camera to record the sound of shots echoing through the stone classroom building.
The massacre took place at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a coed dormitory that houses 895 people, and continuing at least two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building about a half-mile away, authorities said.
Two people were killed in a dormitory room, and 31 others were killed in the classroom building, including the gunman, police said.
"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," Steger said. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."
Steger emphasized that the university closed off the dorm after the first attack and decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means to notify members of the university, but with 11,000 people driving onto campus first thing in the morning, it was difficult to get the word out. He said that before the e-mail went out, the university began telephoning resident advisers in the dorms to notify them and sent people to knock on doors to spread the word.
Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum would not say how many weapons the gunman carried. But a law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation was incomplete, said that the gunman had two pistols and multiple clips of ammunition.
Flinchum said that some doors in the classroom building had been chained shut from the inside.
Police said they were still investigating the shooting at the dorm when they got word of gunfire at the classroom building.
Some students bitterly questioned why the gunman was able to strike a second time.
"What happened today, this was ridiculous," student Jason Piatt told CNN. "While they send out that e-mail, 20 more people got killed."
Students and Laura Wedin, a student programs manager at Virginia Tech, said the first notification they got of the shootings came in an e-mail at 9:26 a.m., more than two hours after the first shooting.
The e-mail had few details. It read: "A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating." The message warned students to be cautious and contact police about anything suspicious.
Student Maurice Hiller said he went to a 9 a.m. class two buildings away from the engineering building, and no warnings were coming over the outdoor public address system on campus at the time.
Everett Good, junior, said of the lack of warning: "I'm trying to figure that out. Someone's head is definitely going to roll over that."
"We were kept in the dark a lot about exactly what was going on," said Andrew Capers Thompson, a 22-year-old graduate student from Walhalla, S.C.
At an evening news conference, the university president and police chief said they were still investigating whether the shootings at the dorm and the classroom building were related. But earlier in the day, the chief said he believed there was only one gunman, and he was dead.
Edmund Henneke, associate dean of engineering, said he was in the classroom building and he and colleagues had just read the e-mail advisory regarding the first shooting and were discussing it when he heard gunfire. He said moments later SWAT team members rushed them downstairs "but the doors were chained and padlocked from the inside." They left the building through a construction area that had not been locked.
Henneke said it is unfair to criticize the school over the delay in warning.
"People are absolutely making too much of that. You do what you can," Henneke said. "We have a huge campus. You have to close down a small town and you can't close down every way in or out."
At least 26 people were being treated at three area hospitals for gunshot wounds and other injuries, authorities said. Their exact conditions were not disclosed, but at least one was sent to a trauma center and six were in surgery, authorities said.
Up until Monday, the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard plowed his pickup truck into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.
The massacre Monday took place almost eight years to the day after the Columbine High bloodbath near Littleton, Colo. On April 20, 1999, two teenagers killed 12 fellow students and a teacher before taking their own lives.
Previously, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history was a rampage that took place in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin, where Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower and opened fire with a rifle from the 28th-floor observation deck. He killed 16 people before he was shot to death by police.
Founded in 1872, Virginia Tech is nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains of southwestern Virginia, about 160 miles west of Richmond. With more than 25,000 full-time students, it has the state's largest full-time student population. The school is best known for its engineering school and its powerhouse Hokies football team.
The rampage took place on a brisk spring day, with snow flurries swirling around the campus. The campus is centered around the Drill Field, a grassy field where military cadets — who now represent a fraction of the student body — practice. The dorm and the classroom building are on opposites sides of the Drill Field.
A gasp could be heard at a campus news conference early in the day when the police chief announced that at least 20 people had been killed. Previously, only one person was thought to have been killed.
A White House spokesman said President Bush was horrified by the rampage and offered his prayers to the victims and the people of Virginia. "The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," spokeswoman Dana Perino said
After the shootings, all entrances to the campus were closed, and classes were canceled through Tuesday. The university set up a meeting place for families to reunite with their children. It also made counselors available and planned an assembly for Tuesday at the basketball arena.
After the shooting began, students were told to stay inside away from the windows.
Aimee Kanode, a freshman from Martinsville, said the shooting happened on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. Kanode's resident assistant knocked on her door about 8 a.m. to notify students to stay put.
Police said there had been bomb threats on campus over the past two weeks by authorities but said they have not determined a link to the shootings.
It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.
Last August, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus. The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.
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So tragic. :'(
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I was just watching the news about this. Unbelievable. :thumbdown;
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Its all over the news here. So sad.
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God Bless all those innocent people who were just there trying to better themselves and as sad as this may be, God Bless the person who decided to end the lives of all those innocent people, including himself. :angel;
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What a terrible tragedy. imagine what the families of the dead are going through not to mention what the family of the gunman is going through. Just imagine being there and seeing it all happen. These people will have to live with the memory for the rest of there lives
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having lived through columbine, all i can do is cry
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its so terrible.. :( :(
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The news hit here very early this morning, and I just felt a strange mix of numbness and horror, the likes of which I haven't experienced since the Port Arthur massacre (which, being much closer to home, struck me dumb). Even Columbine didn't strike me this much, perhaps because not as many lives were lost. That does not make it any more or less tragic, however.
Like goofynina, I am sad for the innocent lives lost, including that of the gunman (I know not everyone will share this feeling and I respect that). Also, I feel for the families of the victims and the gunman. And the community as a whole.
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I feel so terribly sorry for all involved, and pray that they and their families find peace. I haven't quite got my head around it all yet.
Blacksburg is about 25 min. from where I was raised, and it's so surreal to be listening to NPR in the car and hear about something so close to home, or see a national TV show showing familiar landmarks. Oddly enough, what has made it seem so very close to me (although I did not know anyone connected with the situation) is hearing the local accents of those interviewed! We were just discussing accents on another IHD thread, and now I'm hearing that distinctive drawl everytime I turn on the TV. The effect it is having on me is most peculiar, almost as if I've been drawn back to my youth spent in that neighborhood.
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so senseless and sad-
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We were told to keep it low key on the campus today and if any kids needed to talk they could go to the police officer or counselor ont he campus. Our school has also implemented a safety plan for us to use if anything goes wrong on the campus.
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He mailed his manifesto to NBC between shootings.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/
So much hate for no good reason.
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Unfortunately it was a no good reason, but a very real reason just the same. This guy was incomprehensibly disturbed. The world had gotton to him and he accepted violence as his outlet. He didn't come up with the idea but he sure has helped to promote it among others like himself. I sure hope we as an American society can find a way to help people like Cho before they reach that final point. He seems to be a byproduct of the more, more, more, American attitude and what it takes to be socially accepted in today's culture. As much as you wan to blame him and the Columbine shooters I don't think it is all their fault. Somewhere in their lives someone has let these people down.
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Money is the root of all evil. Seems like his "perception" was that rich kids have it all and it wasn't enough.
I look at rich kids today and think the same thing but I don't want to kill them. Actually I feel sorry for them because they have no clue what life is about and Mommy and Daddy are too busy to spend time with them so they just buy them away.
Some people are too week to be content in their own life. They always have to blame others for their situation or misery. "the rich kids made me do it" "I'm picked on" "My Mother and Father..." blah blah blah
Sad........ :(
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"Things are tough all over" - the one most fundamentally important line in the whole of "The Outsiders". Fabulous book, if you haven't read it, do so. Author is SE Hinton.
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But I bet a lot of the kids he shot were normal every day kids who have no idea he thought they were rich. They probably had richer lives than he did filled with fun and people, while he seemed to be a loner. He probably misconstrued a lot of thngs in his head and took it out on innocent people!
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Kitkatz, you're absolutely right. Mental illness can twist perceptions, and this guy didn't have a grip on reality anyway. It's easy to see oneself as right and everybody else as wrong, but that doesn't make it so!
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Very Sad so Sad.
But Welcome to the World of the people who play the Blame Game, The Modern Witch Hunt.
Hate Hate Hate.
Me Personally don't care if someone rich or poor I got friends on both sides and guess what we get along believe or not, You know why? Cuz they all wanna make it, If u try to live your own life u can make it, it might be hard but it's possible
But the Lazy people just hate and easier to pull a trigger then to Work your way up. It's easy to say Money is evil. Why is it never the Person who pulled the triggers fault, no its the gun company's fault? or the Police acted to slow? Or the evil Video Games, books, movies.
It's easy to be a Victim. Who are these people who take no responsibility for themselves and their actions and blame everybody and anything else when they do wrong.
To play the Blame Game or Victim Game u lose and hurt other aswell as yourself in the long run.
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It's easy to be a Victim. Who are these people who take no responsibility for themselves and their actions and blame everybody and anything else when they do wrong.
To play the Blame Game or Victim Game u lose and hurt other aswell as yourself in the long run.
Very well put. :clap; :clap; :clap;
It's all about personal responsibility. If he mental problems they should have been addressed and he should have been helped.
Donna
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I don't understand these last two post at all. Who is playing the blame game? What witch hunt? Personal responsibility? I am not criticizing I would just like to understand what you guys are trying to say. Care to explain?
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The easy access to the guns he had should also be a concern. :thumbdown;
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I don't understand these last two post at all. Who is playing the blame game? What witch hunt? Personal responsibility? I am not criticizing I would just like to understand what you guys are trying to say. Care to explain?
George, did you follow the link to NBC and read some of what the shooter put in his manifesto? In his ranting letters, he seems to blame money and rich people for, well, everything that ever went wrong in the world. That's what we are talking about.
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Such a tragedy.
I also agree, there is no reason in this world that could justify something like this happening. We let the shooter down? Someone in his life let him down? Society let him down? I don't think so.
God bless the families of the victims.
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I don't think this guy is the only one to harbor such feelings. Could there be some legitimacy to what he felt? In fact I have shared similar feelings about the world, fortunately for me, I have had a few good people in my life to right me when I have been wrong. It doesn't sound like Cho had anybody for quite a long time. There is no justification of what happened, however, possibly if someone had found a way into his life he could have been helped. He did have run ins with concerned individuals, even thought he was suicidal at some point, so what happened when he was released from them mental hospital? Did he have any support system? It sounds like he made cries for help with some of his writings and such and it never came in the form that was necessary. Love. I think that is what was missing in his life for so long. Could you live without love? Somebody did let him down, the world let him down. I don't see Cho as playing a blame game and I still don't understand what is meant about a witch hunt, I see a person who felt like he had nothing to live for, which is a pretty powerful feeling that can consume someone without the necessary strength to hold on. He was the weakest of humans and I feel for him and certainly for the family and friends of the victims. Unfortunately it is only a matter of time before another Cho reaches the end of the line.
Gun laws should be equally firm from state to state but keep in mind that this guy had no prior criminal violations and therefor most likely a law would not have prevented such a tragic event.
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Very well put.
It's all about personal responsibility. If he mental problems they should have been addressed and he should have been helped.
Donna
In a perfect world maybe.....this guy was in the hospital for being a danger to himself-but they let him go, saying he was no danger,I could go on and on with the details of this case,but by now we have all heard the same newscast 25 times....there is no public money to treat mentally ill people, all you have to do is visit one soup kitchen to see where the majority end up. We just do not care until something like this happens.
Gun laws should only exsist to protect my right to own them.
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Shouldn't we be focusing our attention on the heroes in this tragedy?
The more attention we give to the maniac, the more infamous he becomes.
How about the professor who saved lives by giving his own?
Or the students who put their lives in danger to save others?
These are the people I will be talking to my children about.
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it is true the media is not honoring the victims with this coverage at all-just giving him the notoriety he wanted.
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The easy access to the guns he had should also be a concern. :thumbdown;
There are no easy access to guns .
All gun buyers that buy firearms at a licensed business have to submit their Constitutional rights and apply to buy a gun through a check via the Brady Act. Most of the time when one is found mentally ill by a court as Cho was they are barred from buying a firearm. The Bradys Act failed just as was predicted it would.
Various things could have been done to stop this but no matter what law is on the book it cannot stop those that are out to commit such an act. They will commit it no matter what the law or laws are.
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Hasn't this subject been totally beaten to death yet? Endless discussions of it and endless media coverage do nothing but rehash what everyone already knows.
I heard about this thing when it happened on Monday and you know what I did? I stopped watching television news until today because I don't want to hear about it constantly.
A little while ago I turned on CNN while drifting in and out of sleep to be greeted with the story of a gunman on the campus of Johnson Space Center in Houston. I kept that on while sort of sleeping with the point being that in two hours of reporting there was no new information at anytime and the same two or three facts were repeated endlessly over and over again and for what?
Yes these events are tragedies but their endless repetition serves no purpose whatsoever. And the TV stations wonder why nobody watches anymore...
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The easy access to the guns he had should also be a concern. :thumbdown;
There are no easy access to guns .
All gun buyers that buy firearms at a licensed business have to submit their Constitutional rights and apply to buy a gun through a check via the Brady Act. Most of the time when one is found mentally ill by a court as Cho was they are barred from buying a firearm. The Bradys Act failed just as was predicted it would.
Various things could have been done to stop this but no matter what law is on the book it cannot stop those that are out to commit such an act. They will commit it no matter what the law or laws are.
You could have the most strictist gun laws in the world and guess what? The bad guys will always be able to get the guns.
People who commit crimes do not have licensed firearms ( I can't state that as a fact but it's common sense), they buy them from people who sell them on the streets. I knew a guy who I grew up with who has three unlicensed handguns. He never used them to my knowledge but it just goes to show you not all guns are bought legally.
Donna
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Tell me again why we need the right to bear arms. Gun laws should be harsh in nature. Why not have a 30 day wait period on all firearms (plenty of time time to perform any necessary backround checks)? What can be so important that someone can't wait 30 days?
People who commit crimes do not have licensed firearms ( I can't state that as a fact but it's common sense)
A fact? Highly unlikely. Crimes are committed with legal guns everyday. If you are stereotyping then that statement MIGHT stick but the reality is all kinds of people commit crimes with all kinds of weapons, legal or not.
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Owning isn't a 'need' but it is a basic American right. The Second Amendment... and if you do not exercise your rights- you will lose them.
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Tell me again why we need the right to bear arms. Gun laws should be harsh in nature. Why not have a 30 day wait period on all firearms (plenty of time time to perform any necessary backround checks)? What can be so important that someone can't wait 30 days?
Same reason we need free speech. Apply just a few of those unconstitutional gun laws in a similar manner to the First and you might see just how wrong they are. You might note that some of the most violent places in America and the world have very strict gun laws and or outright gun bans.
There was a background check performed.
30 days will not matter to someone who is intent on committing a crime.
A fact? Highly unlikely. Crimes are committed with legal guns everyday. If you are stereotyping then that statement MIGHT stick but the reality is all kinds of people commit crimes with all kinds of weapons, legal or not.
While some crimes are committed with legal firearms the vast majority are not. Very few criminals are able to get a gun through legal channels and for that matter very few honest citizens get a gun to commit a crime. In fact more lives and property are protected by guns everyday than used in a criminal manner.
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Tell me again why we need the right to bear arms. Gun laws should be harsh in nature. Why not have a 30 day wait period on all firearms (plenty of time time to perform any necessary backround checks)? What can be so important that someone can't wait 30 days?
Same reason we need free speech.
How? The right to speak and the right to own a gun are, in my opinion, nowhere close to being thew same thing. The only thing they have in common is that they are both in the constitution. Personally I exercise my freedom of speech but I have never owned a gun and will never own a gun. There is no reason for the majority of Americans to own hand guns. How about laws that permit buyers to purchase for specific pourpose only, like hunting, or business owners, things of that nature. What reason is there that a college student needs to own a firearm?
There was a background check performed.
30 days will not matter to someone who is intent on committing a crime.
I know there was a backround check. It is not mandatory by the federal government for states to report medical records of applicants for a gun permit. 30 days may or may not matter but why shouldn't there be as many speed bumps as possible? 30 days shouldn't matter to anyone, why would you need something so bad? Why not have a test to pass at the end of the 30 days (a safety course of sorts) similar to a drivers license, which must be renewed every so often. How about a heavy tax or required insurance? There simply is not enough being done as far as gun controll goes.
People who commit crimes do not have licensed firearms ( I can't state that as a fact but it's common sense),
I watch crime shows on Discovery and Biography channel and such......I have to say, a lot of the time there is a story about a good person gone bad, and sometimes there are legal firearms involved. Crime is not limited to robbery, rape, and low level thugs.
Back in the days of cowboys and Indians a gun may have been necessary, for most of America today they are completely unnecessary. The laws really need to be reconsidered.
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Tell me again why we need the right to bear arms. Gun laws should be harsh in nature. Why not have a 30 day wait period on all firearms (plenty of time time to perform any necessary backround checks)? What can be so important that someone can't wait 30 days?
Same reason we need free speech.
How? The right to speak and the right to own a gun are, in my opinion, nowhere close to being thew same thing. The only thing they have in common is that they are both on the constitution. Personally I exercise my freedom of speech but I have never owned a gun and will never own a gun. There is no reason for the majority of Americans to own hand guns. How about laws that permit buyers to purchase for specific pourpose only, like hunting, or business owners, things of that nature. What reason is there that a college student needs to own a firearm?
There was a background check performed.
30 days will not matter to someone who is intent on committing a crime.
I know there was a backround check. It is not mandatory by the federal government for states to report medical records of applicants for a gun permit. 30 days may or may not matter but why shouldn't there be as many speed bumps as possible? 30 days shouldn't matter to anyone, why would you need something so bad? Why not have a test to pass at the end of the 30 days (a safety course of sorts) similar to a drivers license, which must be renewed every so often. How about a heavy tax or required insurance? There simply is not enough being done as far as gun controll goes.
People who commit crimes do not have licensed firearms ( I can't state that as a fact but it's common sense),
I watch crime shows on Discovery and Biography channel and such......I have to say, a lot of the time there is a story about a good person gone bad, and sometimes there are legal firearms involved. Crime is not limited to robbery, rape, and low level thugs.
Back in the days of cowboys and Indians a gun may have been necessary, for most of America today they are completely unnecessary. The laws really need to be reconsidered.
You see- in a free country we have the basic right to be a gun owner- for pleasure- hunting is a billion dollar industry, millions of people own and collect guns, hunt with guns, target shoot-whatever-its a right in this country- Your opinion scares me- how quickly you would give my rights away because you don't agree with them.
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I have to disagree with you this time George. We as a free country are losing all our rights. It is against the law to own an assault type firearm but only because Law enforcement doesn't want to be out gunned. I agree with Donna. The old cliche if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. Just my :twocents;
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How? The right to speak and the right to own a gun are, in my opinion, nowhere close to being thew same thing. The only thing they have in common is that they are both on the constitution. Personally I exercise my freedom of speech but I have never owned a gun and will never own a gun. There is no reason for the majority of Americans to own hand guns. How about laws that permit buyers to purchase for specific pourpose only, like hunting, or business owners, things of that nature. What reason is there that a college student needs to own a firearm?
The Constitution and Natural Law make no exception, nor do they put more importance on one over the other.
If you cannot handle a firearm then do not own one. The Second Amendment was never about hunting or letting business owners have firearms. It is about the PEOPLE having firearms. A God given right that was so IMPORTANT that the founding fathers put it into a Bill of Rights to insure government didnt mess with that right.
It is the peoples right to own firearms, shown by the US Constitution and shown by many State Constitutions.
I suggest you apply some of that logic you used to the first to see how flawed it is.
I know there was a backround check. It is not mandatory by the federal government for states to report medical records of applicants for a gun permit. 30 days may or may not matter but why shouldn't there be as many speed bumps as possible? 30 days shouldn't matter to anyone, why would you need something so bad? Why not have a test to pass at the end of the 30 days (a safety course of sorts) similar to a drivers license, which must be renewed every so often. How about a heavy tax or required insurance? There simply is not enough being done as far as gun controll goes.
Medical records are private and protected by federal law.
Next time you post you wait 30 days before posting. After all if you dont need to post so bad right?
How about making people who want to use free speech fill out a 4473 form. Of course with profanities you used George you will be banned from using free speech. ;D
How about a heavy tax on those that want to use free speech. That way they will only speak something of importance?
How about making people pass a English course and having to renew it so often before using free speech?
Gun Control. This will burst your bubble but CRIMINALS DO NOT FOLLOW GUN CONTROL OR GUN LAWS. Such laws only affect honest law abiding people. :banghead;
I watch crime shows on Discovery and Biography channel and such......I have to say, a lot of the time there is a story about a good person gone bad, and sometimes there are legal firearms involved. Crime is not limited to robbery, rape, and low level thugs.
Back in the days of cowboys and Indians a gun may have been necessary, for most of America today they are completely unnecessary. The laws really need to be reconsidered.
The vast majority of gun crimes in this country are done by criminals, not law abiding folks who flipped out.
The Second Amendment was never written because of Cowboys and Indians.
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THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
Assault is a behavior, not a device!
80,000,000 firearm owners killed no one yesterday!
Over 6,000 people protected themselves, property or loved ones with firearms yesterday.
The Unites States Constitution, (c) 1791. All rights reserved.
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.
Gun control is not about guns; it is about control of people.
If you don't know your Rights, you don't have any.
A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.
The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.
Guns have only two enemies: Rust and Politicians.
Know guns, Know peace and safety. No guns, No peace and safety.
You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.
911- Government sponsored Dial A Prayer.
Criminals love gun control, it makes their job safer.
Only a government that is afraid of its citizens will try to limit their rights.
You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.
When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.
".....a government by the people for the people...."
If guns cause crime, then pens cause misspelled words.
If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.
It is better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it.
The American Revolution would NEVER have happened with Gun Control!
"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press." Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.- Thomas Jefferson
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well, anyway, we've all felt sad for the victims and their families.
We've all felt anger and frustration at the gunman.
But we've forgotten someone in this:
Cho's family
They didn't have anything to do with his actions. Can you imagine hearing about the shootings and being so sad and in shock with the rest of the world THEN you find out you son was the one who did this????
And he killed himself.
So now they're grieving the loss of a son who just committed the most heinous of crimes.
No one is comforting them.
No one is consoling them.
He's just destroyed their lives too. They'll probably have to move. For many years they will feel ashamed, if not always.
I feel for them too.
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THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
Assault is a behavior, not a device!
80,000,000 firearm owners killed no one yesterday!
Over 6,000 people protected themselves, property or loved ones with firearms yesterday.
The Unites States Constitution, (c) 1791. All rights reserved.
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.
Gun control is not about guns; it is about control of people.
If you don't know your Rights, you don't have any.
A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.
The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others.
Guns have only two enemies: Rust and Politicians.
Know guns, Know peace and safety. No guns, No peace and safety.
You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.
911- Government sponsored Dial A Prayer.
Criminals love gun control, it makes their job safer.
Only a government that is afraid of its citizens will try to limit their rights.
You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.
When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.
".....a government by the people for the people...."
If guns cause crime, then pens cause misspelled words.
If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.
It is better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it.
The American Revolution would NEVER have happened with Gun Control!
"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press." Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.- Thomas Jefferson
I just want to add to this that our forefathers thought this right so important, so integral to this country that they did put in the Constitution the right to keep and bear arms.
Donna
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The right does not need to be taken away but we are talking about guns not my f@#*ing mouth (thats for you BigSky). Guns and speech are not the same thing no matter how you look at it so why would I want to compare the two? I may have the foulest mouth on the planet but it will never physically harm anybody not matter how much I misuse it. Can you say that about a fire arm? I have to do more to obtain and keep a drivers license that I do to own a gun which in my opinion is out of balance. While cars can kill, it is not their purpose. All I am saying is that why not do as much as possible to protect our people and our rights. Implementing requirements to own a gun is not taking away anyone's right, why not make people jump through hoops, why not require insurance, why not require a safety class/test? Nobody is saying you CAN"T/DON"T HAVE THE RIGHT to own a gun, should it be so easy? I don't believe it should be. If you can't handle a gun then you should defiantly not own one but that is not the reason why I don't have one. I have good eyesight and a steady hand so I would probably be a damn good shot, what do you think BigSky.
"Medical records are protected by federal law." - BigSky
I thought mental health was part of the backround check. Is it not?
And it's not only law abiding folks who flipped out that commit the crimes with legal guns, it is not limited to anybody, the person does not necessarily have to have flipped out for a crime to be committed. How about irresponsible parents who's children wind up with the gun at school? In my book that is a crime. Not one committed by the child but rather the parent/owner of the gun.
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The right does not need to be taken away but we are talking about guns not my f@#*ing mouth (thats for you BigSky). Guns and speech are not the same thing no matter how you look at it so why would I want to compare the two? I may have the foulest mouth on the planet but it will never physically harm anybody not matter how much I misuse it. Can you say that about a fire arm?
Our founding fathers beg to differ.
My firearms and millions of other's firearms have caused no harm in ANYWAY to another, can you say that about your use of free speech and can you say that about EVERYONES use of free speech?
In fact I have seen tens of thousands of firearms in my life and not once did one jump up and cause anyone any harm for that matter. People kill, not firearms.
I have to do more to obtain and keep a drivers license that I do to own a gun which in my opinion is out of balance. While cars can kill, it is not their purpose.
Actually you do not. While you may take a test you do not have to undergo a federal background check. BTW cars kill far more people each year than guns in this country. Firearms are made for a variety of things, not one of them being marketed as to kill someone.
All I am saying is that why not do as much as possible to protect our people and our rights. Implementing requirements to own a gun is not taking away anyone's right, why not make people jump through hoops, why not require insurance, why not require a safety class/test? Nobody is saying you CAN"T/DON"T HAVE THE RIGHT to own a gun, should it be so easy? I don't believe it should be. If you can't handle a gun then you should defiantly not own one but that is not the reason why I don't have one. I have good eyesight and a steady hand so I would probably be a damn good shot, what do you think BigSky.
No where in the Constitution does it give the government the right to infringe or make requirements to own a firearm. The Constitution is VERY CLEAR on what powers the federal and state governments get, and firearm ownership requirements are not one of them. No more, no less.
And it's not only law abiding folks who flipped out that commit the crimes with legal guns, it is not limited to anybody, the person does not necessarily have to have flipped out for a crime to be committed. How about irresponsible parents who's children wind up with the gun at school? In my book that is a crime. Not one committed by the child but rather the parent/owner of the gun.
A child takes a parents car without permission. Did the parents commit a crime?
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My firearms and millions of other's firearms have caused no harm in ANYWAY to another, can you say that about your use of free speech and can you say that about EVERYONES use of free speech?
Yes. Speaking has never physically harmed anybody. Some people do have a phobia of guns in which your gun has unknowingly caused. I am talking about real harm, not being offended and "emotionally" hurt. Didn't you mom ever tell you the saying...."sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never hurt you."
What about a stolen gun? Someone can steal my words but it will never kill anybody.
This is conflicting...... People kill, not firearms.
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BTW cars kill far more people each year than guns in this country.
I have to do more to obtain and keep a drivers license that I do to own a gun which in my opinion is out of balance. While cars can kill, it is not their purpose.
Actually you do not. While you may take a test you do not have to undergo a federal background check. BTW cars kill far more people each year than guns in this country. Firearms are made for a variety of things, not one of them being marketed as to kill someone.
Actually I do. First school, then a written test, then a performance test, then various insurance requirements, and periodic renewals, and if I move I have to do it all over again. So what if a piss poor federal backround check is not part of the deal, that doesn't mean squat! And I forgot the eye test that requires corrective vision if failed.
No where in the Constitution does it give the government the right to infringe or make requirements to own a firearm. The Constitution is VERY CLEAR on what powers the federal and state governments get, and firearm ownership requirements are not one of them. No more, no less.
Society is far different today then what it was when the constitution was written and signed. Few things in this life are timeless. Had our founding fathers lived in this time era I think they would have had enough sense to regulate ownership laws.
A child takes a parents car without permission. Did the parents commit a crime?
A car and a gun are not even in the same ballpark. Just because guns are not "marketed" for killing it sure as heck was the reason for invention and design. Automobiles were invented for efficient transportation. Where is the sense in that question? Parents are held responsible if their child doesn't attend school though, so maybe if the child is 12 or 14 years old the parent should be held at some fault.
BigSky, you did not answer my question about mental health being a part of the backround check.
I have to tell you that I am disappointed in your argument over this issue. Your statements are weak and somewhat ridiculous. If you would like we can start a new thread so we don't continue to take away from the V.T. tragedy. carson's "well, anyway...." sounds like a hint.
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simply put.
" Matches don't start forest fires, people do."- Yogi Bear
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I thought it was this guy that said that..............Smokey Bear, not Yogi Bear? "Kids, only you can prevent forest fires."
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Yes. Speaking has never physically harmed anybody. Some people do have a phobia of guns in which your gun has unknowingly caused. I am talking about real harm, not being offended and "emotionally" hurt. Didn't you mom ever tell you the saying...."sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never hurt you."
A gun sitting by itself has NEVER harmed anyone nor has it ever caused emotional harm by itself.
What about a stolen gun? Someone can steal my words but it will never kill anybody.
Not quite. People can use your words and commit actions. Look at what Hitler said and tens of millions died because of those words!
This is conflicting...... People kill, not firearms.
AND
BTW cars kill far more people each year than guns in this country.
Actually it is not because it is two separate statements in response to two things you said and in no way are related to one another in their context.
Saying cars kill far more people each year than guns in this country plays off your wrong assumption that it is the gun that kills and not the person behind it.
Actually I do. First school, then a written test, then a performance test, then various insurance requirements, and periodic renewals, and if I move I have to do it all over again. So what if a piss poor federal backround check is not part of the deal, that doesn't mean squat! And I forgot the eye test that requires corrective vision if failed.
First one doesn't need to go to school. Ohh ya and second..... YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DRIVE, CONSTITUTIONAL OR OTHERWISE!!!!!
Society is far different today then what it was when the constitution was written and signed. Few things in this life are timeless. Had our founding fathers lived in this time era I think they would have had enough sense to regulate ownership laws.
Same thing can be said about Free Speech.
A car and a gun are not even in the same ballpark. Just because guns are not "marketed" for killing it sure as heck was the reason for invention and design. Automobiles were invented for efficient transportation. Where is the sense in that question? Parents are held responsible if their child doesn't attend school though, so maybe if the child is 12 or 14 years old the parent should be held at some fault.
No far more people die because of cars than they do from firearms in this country.
Guns were NEVER made for some nutjob to go out and murder people either, so your design argument is moot. A gun is made to fire a projectile, plain and simple. That is it. It is the person behind the gun that puts it to good or bad use. Same as the person behind the wheel of a car or those that use cars as car bombs.
BigSky, you did not answer my question about mental health being a part of the backround check.
::) To those that know the issue, yes. If a person is adjudicated by a court to be mentally ill ( as the individual was) then he is barred from having a firearm. The check showed no such thing in the courts. Therefore the Brady Act failed just as was predicted because not all courts do their paperwork.
I have to tell you that I am disappointed in your argument over this issue. Your statements are weak and somewhat ridiculous. If you would like we can start a new thread so we don't continue to take away from the V.T. tragedy. carson's "well, anyway...." sounds like a hint.
Be disappointed all you want. Not only is the Constitution is on my side, but so are some of the most important founding fathers of this country. Your lack of knowledge about the Constitution and why the founders REFUSED to compromise on the Second is terrifying. The very fact that you try to use a double standard on the issue shows how frail your position is on the issue. I.E. Comparing your speech to only those that commit gun crimes thus ignoring the fact that 80 million gun owners committed no crime yesterday and in fact over 6000 of those owners saved life, liberty and property with those firearms yesterday, today and again in the future.
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Can I just say as a person who is married to a collector or WWII history and items, I think putting a ban on all weapons is a shame. There is so much history to be gained from the study of these weapons. The weapons of history have shaped the world as we know it today. We need to be aware of these things and how they have been used before to keep our world in order for the future.
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Why is it that we hear so much about the idiots that use the guns to kill and not the responsible Americans who use the guns to save lives?
It happens often that a homeowner who owns a gun will protect his/her family from an intruder.
If my family were being threatened, I would much rather have a gun to shoot him than try to use my words to reason with him.
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kitkatz - We/I am not necessarily suggesting a ban on all weapons, there are proposals that simply reinforce safety.
vandi - Because of the tragedy involved, similar to why the the bad things people do to us stand out easier than the good. One bad apple can ruin the entire bunch.
BigSky - Would you like to take this topic to a thread of it's own, I so very much want to rip you a new one on this issue. Our of respect for this thread I will refrain from further comment.
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I am putting out the popcorn for this one!
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Ya I have heard that before. ::) Seems you got the alligator hummingbird syndrome.
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kitkatz - We/I am not necessarily suggesting a ban on all weapons, there are proposals that simply reinforce safety.
vandi - Because of the tragedy involved, similar to why the the bad things people do to us stand out easier than the good. One bad apple can ruin the entire bunch.
BigSky - Would you like to take this topic to a thread of it's own, I so very much want to rip you a new one on this issue. Our of respect for this thread I will refrain from further comment.
It was a rhetorical question, George.
;D
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I frequently here "Guns don't kill people - people kill people."
Yeah. People kill people - using guns.
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so last year a woman wearing a red jacket was out for a walk in the woods beside her home when BAM she gets killed by a hunter using a....gun! Deer don't wear red jackets!?!
last week, a guy shoots at a wild turkey and inadvertantly shoots another guy in the face.....how does happen??
ya, let's all get a gun :banghead;