I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Off-Topic => Off-Topic: Talk about anything you want. => Topic started by: Charlie B53 on May 31, 2016, 05:51:55 PM
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Day 3 This is tough. That that won't kill me only makes me stronger. That is pretty hard to believe right now as I sometimes have to wonder.
I was absolutely stunned when my Dr told me that I am a Drug Addict. I quit getting high in September 1981. I've been clean ever since. I used an awful lot of NSAI's whic greatly contributed to the damage of my kidneys. But I had quit getting high. Narcotic pain meds didn't help with the pain. I didn't like the fuzziness, it was too much like getting loaded, and it never really helped with the pain. Dr's would prescribe them at different times, I would rarely take any as they just didn't work.
September 97 I hurt my back terribly, spent weeks in agony. I could hardly walk for the next two years. Dr's gave me morphine. I still have them as I refused to take them regularly. They actually made me sick, throwing up if I didn't take something to prevent the nausea. That bottle is over 15 years old. It should be obvious that I do NOT use drugs any longer. I used to. But that was a very long time ago.
I couldn't tell you when the Dr started me on Tramadol, or Fentenyal. Both are wonderful. They really do reduce the pain immensely without the narcotic side effects. No 'high'.
Now the Dr is telling me I am an addict and has cut my dose of Tramadol in half, AND cut my Fentenyal 25%
Today is day 3. I am sore, achy, tired, but the pain is endurable. Every day I have been fortunate the weather is clear. In the 80's. I have been pushing myself to stay busy in the garden and yard. Doing far more than I have in a very long time physically. Maybe I am giving myself a reason to feel so sore and tired. That parts is working perfectly.
Nighttime is my problem. I am alright, no , not alright, the pain is less, more endurable when I am standing. When I lay down to go to bed is the biggest problem. It gets so uncomfortable, the pain grows that I can't lay there. I turn on one side. That ls no good. On my back, nope, that's worse. The other side. No good there either. On my belly, ain't no way. I get up and pace the floor for a while. Exhausted. Finally give in and get in bed. Repeat all the turns and get up again. After about the fifth time I might finally fall asleep. Only to wake up within the hour and start all over again.
I am not looking forward to going to bed later.
I have an appointment with the Drug Dr's Pharmacist but that isn't until NEXT Monday. I hope I am not passed out and hospitalized from sheer exhaustion by then.
Daughter came to visit today as she had an appt with the local foot specialist here. Wife packed a bag and went home with her for a few days. Bailed out on me. Told me maybe I should just go back to the VA and check into rehab there.
I won't giver in that easily. But it is an option if I do give up.
I've got quite a stash of Hershey's, bars and syrup. I'v'e already had a couple shots of the syrup last night. Can't say it really helped, but it didn't hurt anything except raise my blood sugar. Oh, I notice by this mornings blood sugar that I forgot to take my insulin last night. I knew I was bothered, but I didn't realize that I had forgotten it completely.
This sucks! And I have no idea how long this is going to take. That really sucks. This could be one long miserable summer.
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Am so sorry you are going thru this, Charlie B53! I have been living with chronic pain for many years now and indeed it sucks! Don't know where I read it but doctors are being told to cut back on prescribing pain meds because so many people are becoming addicted and many are abusing them in other ways, such as mixing them with other drugs to smoke/snort, etc and sell on the streets.
How to live with chronic pain? It's not easy! Here's what I know tho. Stay mobile, keep on your feet, stay active but don't overdo things. Learn to pace yourself. Don't try to do too many chores all in one day, learn to spread it out. Maybe ask the doc for some Ambien. Some people have weird side effects from Ambien, such as sleep walking but I've been on it for years and haven't experienced any problems with it. Everyone is different, tho. It's very mild, helps you sleep 4-5 hours and doesn't make me groggy the next day. I have taken the lowest dose for years, never have had to increase. Works good, works fast and comes in a generic.
A Rheumatologist told me that certain cells in our body reproduce and do repair-work while we sleep but only when we are in a deep sleep, such as REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep. Basically, if you don't get proper sleep you will wake up in pain like you've described; stiff, sore and aching. Also, you might want to ask about an antidepressant, particularly Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRI's). They are not pain meds. Antidepressants help with of course, depression, but also help with chronic pain but not in the same way as "pain killers". By the way, I am much like you in the way of pain killers. I can only take the lowest doses and the most mildest ones otherwise they make me sick. As for antidepressants, you might look into Zoloft, Cymbalta or Gabapentin. All come in a generic. Anyway, the most important things are: stay mobile, move around, get plenty of rest and sleep, pace yourself. And of course, come here and vent and tell us how you are doing, we will try to help you through this!
Self-edited to correct "Serotonin" to "Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRI's).
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My heart goes out to you. I think the doctor should have provided some kind of plan or support setting for you to deal with this. Or tapered you down much more gradually. I've never been in this situation, so I don't have any personal suggestions to offer. But I hope you come out the other side soon. What about going to a pain clinic? What about medical marijuana?
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Been there it sucks, what I learned to do is to embrace the pain. Feel it, the only thing in my thoughts is the pain. I concentrate on the pain. Then I envision the pain as a pool of cooling water and I am falling into it. For some reason about then I fall asleep. If I wake up repeat. By now if I hurt I just go to sleep, funny I even fall asleep in the dentist chair.
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Back in the 70's I used togrow pot, and smoked more in a day than most peole smoke cigarettes. I was comfortably numb abouot the time Pink Floyd recorded the song. I quit all that cold in 81 when the Feds decided they and the States could sieze assetts, forfeitures from ill-gotten gains. I never looked back. It was a good thing for me as I was developing chest pain only when smoking pot. No problem with cigerattes or cocaine. only pot. I figured I was developing some weird physical aversion to the weed. Many years later I talked with a respiratory therapist that told me she had noticed similar symptoms in a few other very heavy users as well.
I often wonder if pot could be beneficial for me. My home state of Washington has legalized it, but far too late for me as I moved here to Missouri 20 years ago. Not even medical use is allowed here yet.
I do have some in the house. I got it for the Wife's eye problems. I ground it into powder in measured a small amount into capsules for her to take three times daily. She was doing better for a while but kept skipping doses and finally just quit taking them. Her Eye Dr told her she should kep taking it as it does make a small improvement in lowering the ocular pressure.
I made sure it was never enough for her to even notice any effects. Although I do have to admit that I did once open one capsule and smoked it. Ingested immediately smoked it did have an effect. I didn't like it. It was not how I remembered it being. I won't do that again.
This Detox the Dr referred to as taking a Drug Holiday, to get free so that when he does prescribe a dose it will have a good effect once again.
Sleep is very important. I learned that many many years ago when I had my sleep study and got my first CPAP machine. I felt so much better using the machine as I was not suffering from apnea and snoring any longer. I've worn out two of those machines and currently using my third. But even that won't let me sleep well right now. 3:15 and I am up again, for the third, fourth, or fifth time. I've lost count. Nor can I count how many times I have tried to fall asleep only to give up, get up, and pace some more. Like now, using this hoping to tire my brain to the point I almost fall asleep at the keyboard.
I don't remember ever using any type of sleeping med. I generally never have any problem getting to sleep other than pain. Pain alone didn't even keep me from sleeping. Many times I hurt I would simply go take a nap as the rest did seem to reduce the pain.
This isn't just pain. I can't really describe it. Maybe it is more akin to those of withdrawal only I don't have any of the stomach sickness of classic withdrawal symptom I learned about in school. More uneasyness, tenseness, aches almost to muscle cramps in my legs, a feeling that something is terribly not right yet i can't identify it or do much of anything about it.
I am trying to stay active, keep half busy around as much as I can without overly exerting myself to much too fast. I do have to pace myself, stop and take many breaks in place. Not a problem with breathing, but a lack of energy. Like my batteries are run down a lot. If I stand and wait just two or three minutes I can start going again for a while.
Who ever started that 'No Pain, No Gain' should be hit repeatedly with a BIG stick! But I couldn't swing it hard enough to do real damage. If I can keep this up for a month maybe by then I will have gained some strength that I once had. I will just have to endure this and wait and see.
If all else fails the Dr says the Hospital has a ward with an open bed. They do this every day with a number of guys. Just not me, yet.
I don't know if that is a good option for me. I have too much to do here at home. And who would pet my cat? Wife pets the dog but never spends any real time with the cat. Alley Cat and I have a daily routine. Multiple appts in the garage, and she follows me to the barn and all around the yard. She keeps a pretty close eye on me and everything I do. I'm pretty sure she loves me.
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Tramadol and Fentanyl are pretty serious opioids and they warrant good support during withdrawal. I would get your wife back home and take that bed the doctor offered while you get over the hump.
It's too bad that so many states are still so backward when it comes to medical marijuana. Massachusetts is just getting up to speed. A friend of mine with Fibromyalgia has been getting MM for a while now and they have all kind of variations in what is available. Many have no high attached at all, and just contain the parts of the drug that are helpful in pain situations and other conditions. They also come in many forms besides smoking: oil, chocolate bars, stuff that can me consumed in a vape pen, eaten, etc.
You might also want to check out DLPA, an amino acid that blocks an enzyme that blocks endorphins. https://www.moodcure.com/restoring-natural-opioid-system.html
Good luck.
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O dear Charlie I feel for you.
This isn't just pain. I can't really describe it. Maybe it is more akin to those of withdrawal only I don't have any of the stomach sickness of classic withdrawal symptom I learned about in school. More uneasyness, tenseness, aches almost to muscle cramps in my legs, a feeling that something is terribly not right yet i can't identify it or do much of anything about it.
I recognise that feeling I think. Must be in the same pain-group as severe restless leg syndrome which affects the whole body including the brain.
Maybe try Diazepam. Given to withdrawing alcoholics too.
Good luck, love and strength, Cas
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I've been researching LDN (Low Dose Naltrexone) for treatment of autoimmune. Apparently it is also used for inflammatory conditions among other conditions even certain kidney disease. Here is an article on it, if it makes sense to you then check with your doctor as this requires a prescription. Most doctors are familiar with the normal dose of Naltrexone which is used for drug addiction. The research in the article below shows that low dose Naltrexone is whats used for chronic inflammatory conditons. So have this article handy if you decide to speak to your doctor.
http://www.ldnresearchtrust.org/content/low-dose-naltrexone-and-chronic-pain-pradeep-chopra-md
Heart felt wishes for you to be pain free. You've suffered enough.
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I am curious as to what they do for someone who goes to detox. Did the doc say anything other than there's a bed? Do they offer meds, some sort of physical comfort like massages or someone to talk you thru episodes in the night? Any sort of physical therapy and counseling?
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Charlie, when I saw this post, I was prepared for a good laugh. Not so and this is no laughing matter. I cry every day from the pain in my hips and have had radio wave treatment ( lasted about 8 days) and Norco, up to 10.5 No help, nowhere. I even have fentonyl patches. No help at all. I guess the next option will have wheels on it. I do take Melotonin, which knocks me right out for 5 hours or so. I have to tell you that I am glad your Dr. is Detoxing you properly, as in the 8 days I was drug free, I decided to just stop taking the Norco and woke up one night sitting at my computer with a box of ice cream bars on my lap and later discovered I had completely re-arranged my kitchen and remembered none of it. Picture a 77 year old blonde in her pink nightie driving a car. God saved me from that. Keep us posted Charlie and I wish you lots of luck in pain relief.
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Day 3 This is tough. That that won't kill me only makes me stronger. That is pretty hard to believe right now as I sometimes have to wonder.
I was absolutely stunned when my Dr told me that I am a Drug Addict. I quit getting high in September 1981. I've been clean ever since. I used an awful lot of NSAI's whic greatly contributed to the damage of my kidneys. But I had quit getting high. Narcotic pain meds didn't help with the pain. I didn't like the fuzziness, it was too much like getting loaded, and it never really helped with the pain. Dr's would prescribe them at different times, I would rarely take any as they just didn't work.
September 97 I hurt my back terribly, spent weeks in agony. I could hardly walk for the next two years. Dr's gave me morphine. I still have them as I refused to take them regularly. They actually made me sick, throwing up if I didn't take something to prevent the nausea. That bottle is over 15 years old. It should be obvious that I do NOT use drugs any longer. I used to. But that was a very long time ago.
I couldn't tell you when the Dr started me on Tramadol, or Fentenyal. Both are wonderful. They really do reduce the pain immensely without the narcotic side effects. No 'high'.
Now the Dr is telling me I am an addict and has cut my dose of Tramadol in half, AND cut my Fentenyal 25%
Today is day 3. I am sore, achy, tired, but the pain is endurable. Every day I have been fortunate the weather is clear. In the 80's. I have been pushing myself to stay busy in the garden and yard. Doing far more than I have in a very long time physically. Maybe I am giving myself a reason to feel so sore and tired. That parts is working perfectly.
Nighttime is my problem. I am alright, no , not alright, the pain is less, more endurable when I am standing. When I lay down to go to bed is the biggest problem. It gets so uncomfortable, the pain grows that I can't lay there. I turn on one side. That ls no good. On my back, nope, that's worse. The other side. No good there either. On my belly, ain't no way. I get up and pace the floor for a while. Exhausted. Finally give in and get in bed. Repeat all the turns and get up again. After about the fifth time I might finally fall asleep. Only to wake up within the hour and start all over again.
I am not looking forward to going to bed later.
I have an appointment with the Drug Dr's Pharmacist but that isn't until NEXT Monday. I hope I am not passed out and hospitalized from sheer exhaustion by then.
Daughter came to visit today as she had an appt with the local foot specialist here. Wife packed a bag and went home with her for a few days. Bailed out on me. Told me maybe I should just go back to the VA and check into rehab there.
I won't giver in that easily. But it is an option if I do give up.
I've got quite a stash of Hershey's, bars and syrup. I'v'e already had a couple shots of the syrup last night. Can't say it really helped, but it didn't hurt anything except raise my blood sugar. Oh, I notice by this mornings blood sugar that I forgot to take my insulin last night. I knew I was bothered, but I didn't realize that I had forgotten it completely.
This sucks! And I have no idea how long this is going to take. That really sucks. This could be one long miserable summer.
I suggest you check with the VA about a palliative care program. Generally speaking, their take on chronic pain control is more tailored to an individuals needs than a pain management program.
http://va.gov/GERIATRICS/Guide/LongTermCare/Palliative_Care.asp
https://www.mohospice.org/palliative-care/for-consumers/
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I haven't the slightest idea what in-patient detox involves. I see a number of guys around the VA dressed in light brown that are some sort of 'resident patients'. Some of these may be in the detox program, some are homeless that checked in sick and have no place to go. One of those did tell me how the program he was in has saved his life, giving him a function and reason for continued existance, where before he had none. I can well understand his feelings.
Palattive Care looksk closer to long term care for those that still have need for more hands-on nursing care. Somewhat unable to totally care for themselves alone. I don't think I am near that class yet. Pain management is a very good fit. I thought it was working quite well under Dr said I need to take a 'Drug Holiday, Detox so that once 'clean' again he can re-prescribe at low dose and it once again have good effect. This may be so, but it seems like a lot of hell and massive pain and discomfort to go through before getting any relief. I was doing well on the fentenyal. Dr said I could have a heart attack and die and NOT feel it. I'm beginning to think that may not be a bad thing.
I did read the link on the Low Dose Naltrexone. NOT indicated for those using Tramadol. That leaves me out immediately. I don't know if they are going to taper me off that as yet.
Amino acids may be a consideration. I forwarded the link to the Dr to ask his opinion if it may be useful in my case.
I know I was no where near the max dose. I expected it would be many more years, if I lived long enough, for my dose to become a concern. All I know is that it has helped me so much for so long. And I am pretty much worthless right now.
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Palattive Care looksk closer to long term care for those that still have need for more hands-on nursing care. Somewhat unable to totally care for themselves alone. I don't think I am near that class yet. Pain management is a very good fit. I thought it was working quite well under Dr said I need to take a 'Drug Holiday, Detox so that once 'clean' again he can re-prescribe at low dose and it once again have good effect. This may be so, but it seems like a lot of hell and massive pain and discomfort to go through before getting any relief. I was doing well on the fentenyal. Dr said I could have a heart attack and die and NOT feel it. I'm beginning to think that may not be a bad thing.
Charlie, your view of palliative care is misguided - confusing it with hospice care. I say this as someone who has availed himself of palliative care services. Over the last year and a half I've been experiencing some of the worst side effects of 25 years of being on hemo - uremic pruritus, hand neuropathy, and amyloid build up in my neck - even with running 6 hours. I hit a brick wall with my nephrologist and pain management MD on course of treatment to help me get through full treatment times due to either extreme itching jags or pain in both hands. A hospice nurse had suggested I look into a palliative care program.
The goal of palliate care is to help the whole person by relieving both the physical and non-physical suffering a disease/chronic illness may bring. They integrate traditional medicine with holistic treatment options as well. A good palliative care team will work with your nephrologist to help you with controlling pain, relieving symptoms such as nausea, loss of appetite, fatigue, constipation, and depression while also providing counseling if needed. It can help through all stages of many illnesses including stroke, heart disease, copd, liver disease,cancer and esrd. My program medical director came up with a course of action to help me get through my 6 hour treatment regimen as comfortably as possible.
You might wish to leave palliative care open as an option as opposed to dismissing it out of hand, especially since living with extreme pain issues. If reading this, Primetimer, you might be able to benefit as well.
I'll leave it at that, Charlie, and wish you well with whatever course of action you end up taking. ~ SutureSelf
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SutureSelf, You are exactly correct. I had the misguided understanding that this was more towards end of life care. Long term care of maintenance, not recovery as improvement of the underlaying condition not being possible.
I will have to ask a lot of questions. On my Renal team and of both my Pain Dr and Primary. Someone should know more than I do.
I just got the call with the results of yesterday's Bone Density Scan. Osteoporosis. I forgot the word she used to describe the stage. I'm thinking it is still pretty much late initial. I expect to hear from my Primary as to what, if any, medication may be called for. I reminded her that they have already tried three different forms of Vitamin d, some with calcium, but each one only served to increase my already higher than max blood calcium until I was at 11.7 and developing crystals within all my joints. That was not fun.
Sometimes it seems as though life is one long medical experiment, am I am the test subject!
Shouldn't they pay me for what they are learning from this?
I wish!
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Sorry about the Osteoporosis, Charlie B53. Everyone should be concerned about their bone health but I think it's one of those things we tend not to think about for as long as we don't have to, sort of like going to the dentist. But unfortunately, there comes a time... Don't know if this will help you or not but to an extent I do believe that laughter is the best medicine. At least I know I slept better when I read the funny papers before bedtime. I let laughter be my last action of the day. You might read up on Substance P (the pain hormone) and the importance of producing endorphins. And when all else fails, read Garfield (joking). Seriously, hope these doctors can help you come up with a good plan. You're a man doing PD at home, shows you've got a lot of fight in you because you think life is worth it. Sounds like you certainly don't need to be bogged down for too long dealing with the nonsense that addiction has brought to your table. You'll deal with it alright but because you've got fight in you. Coming up with a plan and having the right team (docs) is part of it.
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I usually have a very warped sense of humor and laugh at the lighter side of most every situation. It has been strained this week but I have still managed to laugh at myself, not near as much, but I have had a couple of chuckles.
A small bit if history. My BP is constantly pushed up according to my perceived pain. Those days I hurt more my pressures are much higher than my normal. Renal Dr and I agreed not to increase my BP Meds pending my seeing the Pain Dr again. Little did I know that visit would result in this detoxing. So not only have my BP's been a little higher than my normal, now they are pushed even furthernot only from the increased pain of the reduced pain med, but the other symptoms of withdrawal.
I started reading up in withdrawal symptoms and see that I am nowhere near as bad as many of the usual hard core drug addicts. Fortunate for me I guess. Using the COWS assessment system I only rated myself in the Low category with a score of 4, possibly a 5 which is nearing Moderate.
I also looked to get an idea what if any medications may be used to help with any of these symptoms and I find that Clonidine may be used for many of the very symptoms I have. Oh Really! I used to take this as a BP Med, quitting when my weight loss reduced my BP's low enough the med was no longer needed. I happen to have two boxs left on the shelf! Then I thought I better check the dosing and learned Renal Patients are initially dosed at one-half the usual, increasing if tolerated well and still necessary.
Since my BP's have been high even before this Detox, and Clonidine may help with my detox symptoms, I decided I would go ahead and begin but at the lowered dose. I cut the patch in half so it shoud give me the initial begining Renal dose hourly. I then sent an email to the Pain Dr telling on myself. And called my PD Nurse and told on myself.
My monthly Renal Clinic is Monday as is my appt with the Pain Clinic Pharmicist. Hopefully the Clonidine will ease some of my symptoms and also lower my BP slightly. Two days my PD Log should give some indication if this is successful. Dr will either agree or bitch at me. He may tell me to use it full dose. I will have to wait and see.
I am so hoping that I will feel some beginnings of lessening of withdrawal symptoms within the next couple of hours and maybe get to sleep far earlier than I have been all week.
I could easily have just given up and gotten into my 'stash', and made myself 'comfortable numb' and gone to bed to rest. But that would have defeated the whole purpose of detox. So I haven't done that.
Re-starting the Clonidine was a seriously tough decision, based on my history of using it, long history of elevated BP, current withdrawal symptoms, and took into account the Renal limitation on initial dosage. Calculated minimal risk with greater possible reward.
Hopefully I will have much better news Monday when I see Dr's at Clinics.
I even thought about smoking a couple hits of pot. I KNOW I have a stash, but it has been sooo great many years I could readily find it. I've been clean since 81. It doesn't loose anything with age, just dries out and burns much easier. Trust me, my hair used to be very long. I grew it. I still have my Harley. And I really do miss 'those days'.
Take Care,
Charlie B53
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I can report some small measure of success taking the clonidine. The anxiety is not near as bad as it was. I have managed to get to sleep both Friday night and last night. It still wasn't easy, but instead up getting up so many times and not getting to sleep until three or four, I managed to get to sleep about midnight. I slept almost 8 hours each night. Only getting up to go to the bathroom.
Maybe the worst is passing. I sure hope so.
Only problem is I will have to deal with this THREE more times. Each month as my dose is further reduced until cut out altogether.
Like I said when Dr first talked about this Detox. This whole Summer is going to be a Bitch.
Clinics tomorrow. I will find out how P.O.'d the Dr's are over my starting the Clonidine. I hope they understand how bad off I was. I don't think I really had much choice.
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Hi Charlie, I'm glad to hear you're sleeping again. I'd think clinic will be okay too. And the next three times will probably be easier as you've got something now that works for you.
Good luck matey, love, Cas
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I do have much to be Thankful for. I am no where near as bad off as many of the street addicts! Or like some of those poor addicts that get arrested for their stupidity and end up forcably withdrawing in a jail cell.
Compared to some I am having it very easy. So I have to be Thankful I am able to do this at home. At least here I have things I can do to help keep busy, distract my mind a bit from the stresses.
Since it has been one week already it should be getting a lot easier every day. At least I hope so. I'll soon find out.
Take Care all,
Charlie B 53
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I'd say that so long as you can remember recipes in your head and how to cook a good pot of stew you'll keep off the streets. My husband takes Clonidine for high BP. Doc calls it "the hammer". He doesn't like it because it makes him sleepy. This is why his Endocrinologist wouldn't prescribe it...he doesn't want patients getting sleepy during the day and not be physically active. So, his Neph prescribes it to him instead because she doesn't like his BP being too high. He usually takes it in the evenings but sometimes splits it between late morning and evening. Keep on keeping on!! Good luck with your appt!
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I've never used Clonidine in pill form. Only using the patch which is worn for a full seven days. I was so surprised they could stuff a whole week supply of med into a little patch, AND that it would stay stuck on for that long without falling off!
My patch is 0.2 mg/day I chose to be careful and cut that in half as the manufacture recommends the smaller initial dose for Renal patients. It has not made very much improvement in my BP's so I would not be at all surprised if my Neph decides for me to use the whole patch. Or he may elect to increase on of the other BP meds. I'll find out shortly as it is almost time to head that direction for Clinic.
Oh, sleepiness. I have never noticed sleepiness as a side effect. It may be I have far too much anxiety for the drug to have that much effect on me.
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Oh, Charlie... you are in my prayers.
:pray;
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Charlie -
Congratulations on facing the hard work.
You are an example of how people who turn to street drugs when their MD cut them off are not "victims", but people who made a CHOICE to procure heroin, blackmarket oxy, etc. You did not make that choice. Others did. It's great you have the strength to make a good choice. I hope your recovery continues to progress.
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I can't afford to pay attention. Much less buy drugs on the street.
But I'm told the low cost of Heroin is why we are seeing so many OD's. It is cheap and easily obtainable. The kids don't know the danger they are messing with.
Wayyyyyy back in the day, I've done most everything that could be done just short of sticking a needle into me. I won't go back. Period.
LOL and now I have to stick a needle into myself at least once a day. Diabetes. Who'd a thought?
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thanks , I appreciate your honest application, thinking of your gutting it out grounds me , glad you shared and I bet that cat does love you. talk to you later.
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Met the the Detox Dr Pharmacist Lady, we had a long visit and discussed many things. Symptoms are getting better but it is still very difficult to go to sleep. Addition of benadril equiv and meletonin may be some small benefit. I am trying it and will know better in a few more nights.
I was given a choice whether to continue decreasing in steps taking a month at each step. I expect each one to be much like this firstone. Hopefully the OTC's will help with sleep as that is the worst part for me, daytime I can try to stay busy, sweat it out and distract myself. The other option she gave me was to cut it all off all at once. Total immediate withdrawal could be disturbingly hard. There is a med for that, I forgot the name, started with an 'S' and can only be prescribed by a psychiatrist. She has already talked to him, he is willing to see me and write the prescription after he evaluates me. I said I would pass. Stay with the decreasing doses and just deal with it as I am doing now.
It's a bitch, but I will get through it.
Had a gout attack that lasted most of the week which gave an added thrill to my crankiness. Much better this morning. Thankfully.
I so hope any of you regularly taking pain meds to watch your use carefully. Try to NOT use if at all possible as dependence sneaks up on you. Granted we feel that we are using them responsibly, and we are, but the addiction is still there. And it sure is a shock when that day comes your Dr says you have to cut back.
Time to disconnect from my Cycler, weight, do BP's and fill out my log book.
Take Care,
Charlie B53
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Met the the Detox Dr Pharmacist Lady, we had a long visit and discussed many things. Symptoms are getting better but it is still very difficult to go to sleep. Addition of benadril equiv and meletonin may be some small benefit. I am trying it and will know better in a few more nights.
I was given a choice whether to continue decreasing in steps taking a month at each step. I expect each one to be much like this firstone. Hopefully the OTC's will help with sleep as that is the worst part for me, daytime I can try to stay busy, sweat it out and distract myself. The other option she gave me was to cut it all off all at once. Total immediate withdrawal could be disturbingly hard. There is a med for that, I forgot the name, started with an 'S' and can only be prescribed by a psychiatrist. She has already talked to him, he is willing to see me and write the prescription after he evaluates me. I said I would pass. Stay with the decreasing doses and just deal with it as I am doing now.
It's a bitch, but I will get through it.
Had a gout attack that lasted most of the week which gave an added thrill to my crankiness. Much better this morning. Thankfully.
I so hope any of you regularly taking pain meds to watch your use carefully. Try to NOT use if at all possible as dependence sneaks up on you. Granted we feel that we are using them responsibly, and we are, but the addiction is still there. And it sure is a shock when that day comes your Dr says you have to cut back.
Time to disconnect from my Cycler, weight, do BP's and fill out my log book.
Take Care,
Charlie B53
Just as with palliative care and hospice care, there is confusion between being dependent on a medication to being addicted. Dependence and addiction are two very different things. They should not be confused with each other as dependence for a prescribed drug doesn’t necessitate that a person needs to seek help but makes a person function better. However, an addiction of any kind needs a person to seek help and get treated for it.
Difference Between Dependence and Addiction
• Categorized under Health | Difference Between Dependence and Addiction
Dependence vs Addiction
Addiction or dependence to anything is not something any person wants. Due to medical reasons many people have to take drugs which are necessary for better health and the functioning of their bodies. Their bodies get dependent on the prescribed drugs, but it is not necessary that the dependence changes into addiction.
Dependence
Dependence of the body on a drug is a physical state. Dependence can be identified by the body showing withdrawal symptoms when the prescribed drug that is being used for long-term treatment is abruptly stopped or decreased. It is the way the body shows that it has gotten adapted to the intake of some drug. If the body does not receive it anymore, it shows negative reactions or consequences. These can happen with blood pressure medications, diabetes medications, painkillers, etc.
The physical withdrawal symptoms get controlled after a time. Dependence on drugs does not cause any negative effect on a person’s life or livelihood. In contrast, the usage of such drugs, which may be necessary for their well-being, the person’s life is restored and improved.
Addiction
Addiction is a physical as well as a psychological state or dependence. Physical addiction is treatable by detoxification, but the psychological addiction is far more difficult to treat and is an ongoing struggle for the person addicted. It is a condition where the person is compelled to satisfy his needs regardless of the negative consequences.
It has been observed that some people are predisposed to addiction or vulnerable to addiction due to social influence, biological, and psychological reasons. Due to an addiction, not only the body but also the person’s productivity is reduced. The social functioning of the person is disturbed; total livelihood of a person is affected by being addicted to a drug or other substances.
Addiction can be identified by:
A person’s drug-seeking habits or cravings for other addictive substances.
Preoccupation with trying to get the abusive substance even though the body is being harmed by it.
Misusing the substance for pleasure or intoxication.
Withdrawal symptoms shown after stopping the intake.
Disturbed normal life and functioning.
Summary:
1.Dependence on a medication or drug is a physical state; addiction on a medication or other substances is a physical as well as psychological state.
2.Physical dependence may decrease after some time; addiction keeps getting worse in the absence of treatment.
3.Dependence on a drug is sometimes necessary for the improved functioning of a person. For example, medication for a blood pressure patient makes his life better with the medication. Addiction is the abuse of drugs and other substances, and it makes the life worse as the person doesn’t stop taking them even if their life is being affected negatively.
4.Addiction needs to be treated; dependence does not require treatment.
http://www.differencebetween.net/science/health/difference-between-dependence-and-addiction/
Maybe you have increased dosage to experience a high as opposed to therapeutic reasons and have become addicted to the point of your pain meds negatively affecting your life. You said your wife decided to go stay with your daughter. You say she bailed on you - she might say she's taking care of herself and getting away from a bad situation. Plus, you mentioned loading up on sweets, but "forgetting" to take your insulin. Not good signs.
Taking care of the physical symptoms without treating the psychological aspects is only getting half treatment and doesn't resolve underlying issues. Counseling would be good. At the least, consider attending a few Narcotics Anonymous meetings for perspective and to help get through the rough spots. And again, a palliative care specialist is trained to determine the difference between dependence/addiction and to help patients come up with alternatives to help. In many situations it doesn't have to be all or nothing to lead a less physically painful, comfortable life.
Good article from the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/07/health/opioid-limits-older-patients-pain.html?action=click&contentCollection=health%C2%AEion=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement&_r=1
BTW - the "S" drug the MD mentioned - probably either Suboxone or Subutex
http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/06/11/subutex-vs-suboxone-whats-the-difference/
http://www.treatment4addiction.com/treatment/drug/buprenorphine/suboxone-vs-subutex/
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Glad you are staying strong and keeping firm on this, Charlie B53! Sounds rough but hopefully coming on here and putting it all down into words helps. I use to write letters but would never actually send them. A doctor told me that was an excellent idea, putting things down in writing like that, even if I didn't mail them. Guess it was good getting stuff out whether anybody knew about it or not.
Good thing you have plenty to keep busy with. Don't forget to relax a little, too. I know this sounds silly but one way I relax and get my mind off things and all without having to leave home, is watching birds out a window with a pair of small binoculars. Some birds are interesting and when you learn their habits, they're antics are pretty amusing. Even if only for a few minutes I find it to be a great escape. Living in an apartment tho I have to be careful when I bring out the binoculars...don't want neighbors thinking I am spying on them. :o
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I haven't been 'high' since Sept 1981. Period.
I average maybe one beer a year. I don't care for alcohol except for cleaning parts or fuel.
Dau lives 90 miles away, her and her Mother talk on the phone at LEAST once a day.
Wife is off work for the summer from school, Dau is also on her summer break, she drives a special ed school bus. They spend days together EVERY summer.
I am dependant on meds for pain control due to chronic pain caused by permanent muscle and bone damage, injuries.
Didn't I say, I DON'T get high. Narcotics do not relieve pain, they merely make you so stupid you no longer care about the pain. The synthetics tramadol and fentenyal do NOT give me any high, but they do make a significant reduction in percieved pain.
A fresh bump, cut, scrape, hurts, so it isn't as if I am numbed. I have full control, that I never had with the narcotics.
I cannot explain how, but it does make a huge difference.
But Thank You for the very good post spelling out the huge difference between addiction and dependence. I have become dependent, and the Dr wants to reduce that to a minimal dose. This will take time, and I will deal with the withdrawal symptoms until I become adjusted to it.
I don't really have any choice.
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Hello Charlie,
I feel very lucky that I have never experienced any addiction etc. and I can only imagine what a difficult task you have taken on,
to first admit to the addiction and then to face it and rigorosly approach to "get rid" of the problem...
... and you are congratulated for your bravery to face it and to "get rid" of it ...
... and I send you my wholehearted good-luck-wishes
from Kristina. :grouphug;
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I don't really have any choice.
Sure you do. You could go see da boyz in de hood and get a fix.
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I never thought of myself as being 'addicted'. I was 'medicated' by my Dr to help control my pain and remain fully functional, without any 'high' or fuzziness that I used to get when Dr prescribed traditional narcotic pain meds.
I have simply become 'dependent' on the synthetic meds to control chronic pain.
Dr says they have changed standards and no longer want anyone to be using at my current level. Ergo, Detox. Once my dependency has been reduced to a minimal level the pain relief will be effective again. It will just take time to readjust. Granted,, I will have 'some' symptoms, not just from the drug withdrawal, but the increase in percieved pain, until I become ?? accustomed or aclimitized to my 'new' status// not a good word but maybe gets the point across.
I thought I was OK before. Granted, maybe I was getting too used to that level of medication and was ready for a small increase to relieve my constant pain. But it was still at a functional level. With limitations on movement, it hurts. A couple of joints, and muscles, are trashed. Dr's want to rebuild my R knee and replace the L ankle. I elect not to. They still get me around, and have done so since I broke them in 74. They are mine, I intend to keep them. I no longer leap tall buildings in a single bound, and I am not faster than a speeding bullet, anymore. I once was stupid enough to think I could, almost. I was much younger then. I've put on a few pounds since then.
I will get by. I always have, so far. It just takes me a little longer cause I am slower than most, now.
So I am 'dependent'. It can, and will be controlled. It's just a PITA. but doable.
That first week to 10 days is a Bitch. And I will have three more of these steps coming. This could be a long Summer. I may have to stay inside in the A/C, on-line reading.
Or find me a big A/C unit to cool off my Barn! I seriously doubt I will even try that, no insulation it would drive the electric bill out of sight, and no way could I afford that.
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Dr says they have changed standards and no longer want anyone to be using at my current level.
This statement makes me wonder if you are being put through your ordeal because it is medically best, or to protect to MDs license from a DEA jihad.
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Interesting article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/health/pain-treatment-er-alternative-opioids.html?utm_source=nextdraft&utm_medium=email&_r=0
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Trigger point injections can be a good thing, but in some cases they have serious draw-backs. For the rotator cuff tear in my left shoulder they work beautifully, immediate relief and sometimes last for many weeks, sometimes months, depending on my level of activity. For the nerve impingement of the right testicle, not so well. That is a very difficult injection to give, it has to be spot-on or it shuts down the whole right leg. Spot-on I have hours of total lack of the throbbing pain and gut wrenching cramps. The draw-back is once it wears off, it is like the nerve is seriously madder than before. I believe the hydraulic shock of the injection 'bruises' the nerve. While tranquilized it is no problem. But once that medication wears off the nerve begins screaming in response to the fresh irritation.
Narcotic meds don't do much in the way of actual relief. I was so pleasantly surprised when I tried the synthetics and found measurable improvement without the opiod grogginess.
St Louis Pain Clinic had me try a cocktail of anti-siezure meds which I though had a bit of promise until the increased dosage began causing strange ???? mental effects, altered perceptions somewhat akin to LSD. I had to taper back down until finally quitting that.
Tried using TENS units a number of times, not much success at all. Meditation, relaxation. It is difficult but one of the best methods is simply to try to keep busy trying to accomplish a diversionary task. Finding a way to move my body more efficiently without using specific muscles too much. An altered body mechanics. Teaching myself to turn so I can use an arm or leg in slightly different angle so as not to rely on the specific injured muscle so much.
I walk gently. Shoes wear the balls with hardly any mark on either heel. So there is little shock to the spine as I move. Those step-counter things to tell how far I've walked won't count, not enough 'shock' to make the counter notice I've taken a step.
Chronic pain makes one be far more careful.
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Today is Day 3 of the second step in reduction. I am now at 50% of what was helping mask my chronic pain.
I learned a lot during the first stage. Suffering greatly mostly from a lack of sleep for the first week I finally learned from research and my PD Nurse how beneficial benedril and melitonin can be to aid getting to sleep. The muscle relaxers I keep in case I need them may have help a bit also. So I was somewhat prepared for this reduction. I had pre-loaded my week at a time pill boxes with the two, leaving out the muscle relaxer. I may have forgotten it, but I was able to fall asleep both nights without a problem so I am not going to use them unless the need arises.
I am sort of surprised that I am not having the intense anxiety as I did in the first reduction. This step I am experiencing much more physical pain. Many of the broken bones, torn ligaments and muscle scarring are starting to call for attention. NOT comfortable, but I am still able to get up and move about. I don't think I will be accomplishing much, but I will somehow manage to make a little progress.
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I'm well impressed Charlie
:2thumbsup;
I'm sorry for the terrible physical pains you're having to carry.
But you're strong, you WILL do it.
Love and strength, Cas
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I posted in another thread that I had spent Wed afternoon working on the Wife's Blazer. Son had come over to help me set the intake back on without disturbing the beads of silicone that seal both ends. I knocw I would have smeared it and caused a leak if done by myself.
He was teasing me about how much I've slowed down and sort of made a bet how long it would take me to finish putting it back together. I must have gotten one of my attitudes as while he left to run an errand I stayed at it and put it ALL back together. By the time he got back we only had to change the oil, filter, add water and stir. He was impressed.
I didn't hurt at the time. It's only later, in bed asleep, that the muscles and joints begin swelling. Wake up Thursday in agony. Not so bad today but still nothing will be done. Maybe tomorrow.
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Sounds like you are handling things pretty well, CharlieB, kudos to YOU! :clap;
When it comes to living with chronic pain, I had to learn to pace my bones, joints and connective tissue. Had to learn to do only 1 chore, sometimes 2 if small ones about every other day. Doctor told me to look at it like having a "reserve fuel tank" on a motorcycle and to never end up having to dip in to it and instead, always keep a good amount in the reserve tank. I was always running low but lucky for me, I use to ride motorcycles so understood the doc's whole "reserve tank" analogy. Some days we can do more, some days we have to do less. Heating pads and a warm dog laying next to you help too. A dog's natural body temp is much higher than ours. Our old Blue Heeler (may he RIP) sure let off a lot of heat so came in real handy on cold winter nites but also helped on achy days. Should have had him certified as a therapy dog.
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Blue Heeler
He took his breed name to heart--with a minor variation in spelling. All dogs are healers, IMHO. I remember back to when I had 2 dogs--both good sized. I would lie on the floor or bed and each would position on either side of me--all snuggled up. I remember thinking at the time that this is what heaven must be like.
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We had three dogs, all slept under the blanket with me. Sadly, we lost to of them, jack the Long legged smooth short coat Jack Russel I found alongside the freeway 14 years ago to old age, and Herbie, the one-eyed Beagle we bailed out of the Animal Shelter after his 'unknown' original owner beat him in the head with a hammer for barking at night when he was only a few months old, we lost to kidney failure at 10 years old.
I never have slept so well as I did with all three of them snuggled against me under the blanket.
That was the real reason for the phrase "Three Dog Night" The number of dogs it took to keep warm on a cold Winter night.
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Awesum CharlieB53 ,hope all is well and your back on track... sounds like you are. thanks
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A few more days and my 'patch' will be reduced again. It will be 25% of what it was just a few months ago. I am NOT moving very well. Not doing much constuctively but bitching, which I am getting very good at. And taking naps, another thing I am getting very good at. Laying still I have far less pain though even my dreams I have difficulty moving because of the pain in my joints.
I suspect a month at 25% then another month at 0 before the Dr will prescribe anything again. Like I said when this all began, this is not going to be a good summer for me this year.
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Hello Charlie,
I am very impressed by your determination and I send you my good luck wishes
from Kristina. :grouphug;
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Thanks Kristina,
It can be a difficult time but it won't kill me. I may wish I were dead but I will eventually cut down some more trees, build a bridge, and get over it. NOT. I'm not cutting down any more trees around here unless they die, then little at a time it will go into the burn pile and the ashes then go into the garden. Just like the leaves in the fall, everything ends up back in the garden ground except meat, that draws nuisance animals.
So I'll be slow and sore for a while yet. The yard will still get cut, just not near so fast. I'm NOT racing. And it is hot here, and humid. About 99 today, with the humidity that pushes the heat index to about 110. That's just mean. I will be inside in the A/C most of the day and poke my head out shortly before sunset. Nature taught the nocturnal animals well.
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LOL Forgot to say, I have thought about switching my Cycler times, night/day. Run all day and try to sleep, stay up and out all night when it isn't so hot outside.
I don't think my neighbors would feel that way listening to my lawnmower all night!
At least it would only be ONE night each week, but ALL night. lol
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Charlie, you must have great strength of will. I'm almost certain that I've never experienced anything similar, but I would hope to have the fortitude you're showing. Wishing the best for you in the next two months - may they pass quickly and as smoothly as possible. :boxing;
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Tomorrow will be Day One at the 25% level. I'm not looking forward to this.
But I will survive. I won't be getting much done, but I'll still be breathing. May not be up and walking about much. We will see.
Good thing I am broke all the time. Dope on the street could work, but I am too cheap to find out.
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A little update. Dr didn't cut me off completely. As my last step of fentenyal ran out he prescribed methadone. At first he wanted to give me morphine again. I told him I would NOT take it, it just makes me sick and very fuzzy. So he decided on methadone.
I am surprised that it does make some difference. Not totally, but it does take off the edges and make the aches and pains much more bearable.
Saw Dr again last week, he is going to leave me as is at the current dose until at least January.
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Good news
:2thumbsup;
Love, Luck and strength, Cas
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Good news
:2thumbsup;
Ditto from me! Glad to hear that your doctor was able to offer that as an alternative.
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I haven't gotten high on purpose since Sept 1981. That's a long time to be 'clean'. I really do not need to have that 'altered' feeling any longer.
I understand people using and getting 'loaded'. But I don't need that any longer.
Constant pain can be a serious problem. I have found that for me, the synthetics, used responsibly, can actually make a huge difference in reducing pain without altering my perception.
I was very surprised this last time in-patient with that peritoneal infection. The pain was soo intense, the Dr's had me on regular morphine IV injections. I really didn't want it at first. I was afraid if the sickened stomach and fogginess of perception that I've had previously using morphine pills. So I was very surprised that the injections DID ease the pain somewhat and WITHOUT the sickness. Maybe there is a big difference between those taking the drug for fun and me taking it for serious pain.
Whatever, when Dr wanted to start me on the morphine pills again I respectfully refused, afraid of the side effects same as last time I had them. I did not know methadone could be used as a pain medication. without side effects.
I am getting by O.K. so I'll just keep on at where I am now.
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Wow Charlie... just reread this whole thread and you deserve major kudos for tackling this head-on as you have. I've had friends end up in bad situations due to narcotic abuse - and both of them "started" because of needing pain management for surgery or old injuries. It's such a slippery slope to go down and it seems to go from "under control" to "out of control" very quickly. I'm glad to see your doctor has been working to make sure you're safely off those meds while still managing your pain. Hope it continues on that path.
Keep it up! You're doing great!
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I remember well, and still miss the old days.
I was at the curtain alongside the stage in Frankfurt when Pink Floyd did Comfortably Numb. And Yes, I was.
No more.
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Charlie, I've just seen this and want to let you know that this has moved me quite a lot. I have seen people suffer from chronic pain and it is truly a most horrible thing to have to endure. It is so easy for anybody to become addicted to painkillers. I remember coming down with shingles once and remember how all too well how much I needed painkillers to get through that, it would otherwise have been unbearable! I also recall that I when I had surgery in the past, I was really dosed up with oxycodone (?) and was also given morphine injections. I think they really went overboard with this, to be quite frank (that's from my present self's perspective) and I was the one who eventually refused the drugs by the 3rd day post surgery. I don't recall any high as such, just a bit of temporary nausea, light-headedness and being very sleepy.
You are incredibly brave to have endured in this fight in the way you have.
One question that I had when reading through the posts here is why - considering that you are on dialysis & hence dependent on a great deal of medication - would a doctor suddenly declare that 'you are an addict'. You've been on those painkillers for years under the supervision of MDs ... It sounds like there's been a sudden change in medical protocols more than anything else. If so, it kind of sounds a bit arbitrary from a medical point of view. Yes, we have a wider societal problem with drug abuse and addiction but in my mind, medical patients should have more special consideration as a category in view of the pain and suffering that they have to endure.
I don't have any experience with regular use of painkillers but I now do have to rely on a cocktail of pills to manage my CKD, including Ambien to get a good night's sleep. My attitude is: what we need, we need. I don't enjoy being dependent on pharmaceutical drugs but I have no choice in the matter. If I suffered from pain, I no doubt would want/need medication to alleviate that.
I'm sorry Charlie if I'm sounding like a bit of a Devil's Advocate here in some way. I don't mean to be. I really am a novice with painkillers so therefore find it a bit hard to distinguish them too much from other classes of pharma drugs. Just my 2 cents worth, for what it's worth.
Keep up the good hard work you're doing in fighting for your health Charlie.
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Way to go, Charlie! I just read this thread and you are so inspirational.
I had my first back surgery at 26. I went through multiple steroid injections in my back and a cocktail of naproxen, muscle relaxers, vicodin and lyrica before the doctor agreed to surgery. Turns out, I not only had a herniated disc, but a bone spur growing over my sciatic nerve. Coming off the pain medication was hard. I had been on it for four months before surgery and then about two weeks after surgery. I couldn't sleep and my back hurt as I got used to how to move differently through physical therapy. I relied a lot on Benadryl and melatonin for relief. In fact, I have never quit using melatonin since that first surgery. The pain medicine messed up my sleep cycle and I can't sleep without the melatonin.
I started having pain again a little over a year after surgery. My repaired disc fell in height a little and caused a lot of problems. Again, doctors put me through back injections and physical therapy. I even did chiropractic care, message therapy and acupuncture. It took me about 9-10 months to find a doctor willing to do a spinal fusion on a 28 year old. Finally, I got on xlif fusion in my lumbar spine at L3-4. Now my back structure had changed and I had to learn how to move without catching ligaments on screws in my back and just the general pain of getting over such an extensive surgery. At that point, I had been on vicodin and muscle relaxers for about 10 months. I was supposed to spend only one night in the hospital after surgery, but spent three because the doctors had a hard time controlling my pain. Finally, I went home on a high dose of vicodin and muscle relaxers. It took me a year to get off pain medications. I took the vicodin just at night for months and then switched to tramadol.
It is so hard to come off pain medicine. And then when you need it again, it is hard to sleep and sometimes harder to come off it. Depression can set in and make it even more difficult. I am impressed you came off the medicine in the amount of time you did. I know what it is like to be in pain and have pain down your legs and up your back. I am so glad you have found something that works and makes you feel better!