I Hate Dialysis Message Board

Dialysis Discussion => Dialysis: Home Dialysis - NxStage Users => Topic started by: obsidianom on July 19, 2013, 09:33:34 AM

Title: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on July 19, 2013, 09:33:34 AM
My wife has been using Nxstage for about a year now. She was in center originally about 2 months and HATED it. NxStage has saved her life and made our lives better. She dialyses 5 times per week for about 2 and 3/4 hours per treatment.  That gives her about  3.5 hours more time weekly on dialysis than in center which is MUCH better for her. She actually prefers dialysis days to days off as she feels much better after diaylsis.
Nxstage is great to work with . Any time I need help or have a problem I call and the Techs are great on the phone to help with anything. They just replaced our cycler after 1 year as it had a keypad issue . The new machine arrived by currier the NEXT DAY.  The pureflow system is great as it uses so little water and is easy to use. I spend more time talking with the Nxstage people than the nurses at the clinic as they handle everything so well. I recommend this system to anyone doing home hemo dialysis and for those who are in center  who are thinking of going home . It really is better for my wife than the other type machines .
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on January 22, 2014, 06:59:54 PM
I'm glad you have had good luck with NxStage. unfortunately I havent . In a year I am on my 6th cycler and 3rd or 4th PureFlow. I have an abysmally high failure rate on cartridges and am in the middle of a long standing air issue as we speak.

I am seriously thinking about going back in center since it literally consumes my entire day dealing with either rdialysis or other related issues. I need my life back.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Hemodoc on January 22, 2014, 09:30:04 PM
I'm glad you have had good luck with NxStage. unfortunately I havent . In a year I am on my 6th cycler and 3rd or 4th PureFlow. I have an abysmally high failure rate on cartridges and am in the middle of a long standing air issue as we speak.

I am seriously thinking about going back in center since it literally consumes my entire day dealing with either rdialysis or other related issues. I need my life back.

That sounds quite unusual. Have you discussed these issues with your clinic. I just traded in a machine with a "71" alarm which meant it was time for maintenance .  My experience is not as you are describing.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on January 23, 2014, 02:42:18 AM
I second what Hemodoc wrote. I have had only 1 replacement in over a year and a half. They made it quick and easy to replace the cycler for maintenance. AS it is so portable , a new one came via car and we had it up and running in 5 minutes. Pureflow works smoothly .
Not to jinx myself, but we never get alarms these days. I guess its been months since I saw a single alarm. I found when it used to alarm it was something I did wrong. AS I learned all the nuances and litttle tricks it has become routine now. I work out on my treadmill while my wife is on the cycler. I hardly know it is running. She ignores it completely . 
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: russ9320 on January 31, 2014, 11:26:51 PM
I haven't had too many issues with my nxstage machine. Most of my issues are access.related. you said.you get a bunch of air alarms. The only time I get an air alarm is 11. That is caused by me moving my arm and causing the arterial access pressure to skyrocket. That temporarily pulls air from the pressure pod and the sensor is just pass the pressure pod.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 01, 2014, 05:42:35 AM
One thing you can do to reduce air in the pressure pod and in the whole system is to clamp the red clamp during the snap and tap or just before it while it is at "23".  Clamp it for 3 or 4 seconds then open it. This pushes air out quickly and hard. If you do it 3 times it seems to really reduce air in the pod and line . Since doing this I have never had an air alarm again.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: russ9320 on February 01, 2014, 09:45:35 AM
There is always going to be air in the pod. If not then your arterial pressure is too high. The only reasons I get an alarm is when I move my arm and the needle sucks to the wall.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 01, 2014, 01:03:50 PM
Our arterial pressure runs at 90 or less usually with a blood flow of 340. We use short needles(5/8 inch) which greatly reduces the chances of the needle banging the wall. Longer needdles end up being the issue often.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Hemodoc on February 01, 2014, 01:55:57 PM
One thing you can do to reduce air in the pressure pod and in the whole system is to clamp the red clamp during the snap and tap or just before it while it is at "23".  Clamp it for 3 or 4 seconds then open it. This pushes air out quickly and hard. If you do it 3 times it seems to really reduce air in the pod and line . Since doing this I have never had an air alarm again.

Dear obsidianom, I would have to wonder if that would actually increase air in the system by cavitation. I have accidently clipped the red and turned it on and then I have to spend several minutes getting rid of the air created by doing that especially while I am doing my rinse.

I have found that setting the machine up, then going and doing my supplies and take a shower, in that time, the micro-bubbles aggregate into larger macro-bubbles that I can easily snap and tap. I then draw my heparin and pick my scabs and then when every thing is ready, I do a final snap and tap. Well actually a series of snap and taps and I tap the pressure pod itself.

The other thing I do is to snap and tap the white line after I hook up the white to white. If you do this, there is very little air bubbles left when you do your rinseback.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: russ9320 on February 01, 2014, 03:49:00 PM
Yeah that all would work. I use 1 inch needles and blood flow rate is 450. At 350 I'd be on for 6 hours. I have 30 litres of dialysate and an ff of 40. Andto add to an answer to another question you asked me, I am 6'T3'' and my dry weight is 120.5 KG. Using bags is not that inconvenient to me... like a mini workout.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 02, 2014, 09:42:05 AM
One thing you can do to reduce air in the pressure pod and in the whole system is to clamp the red clamp during the snap and tap or just before it while it is at "23".  Clamp it for 3 or 4 seconds then open it. This pushes air out quickly and hard. If you do it 3 times it seems to really reduce air in the pod and line . Since doing this I have never had an air alarm again.

Dear obsidianom, I would have to wonder if that would actually increase air in the system by cavitation. I have accidently clipped the red and turned it on and then I have to spend several minutes getting rid of the air created by doing that especially while I am doing my rinse.

I have found that setting the machine up, then going and doing my supplies and take a shower, in that time, the micro-bubbles aggregate into larger macro-bubbles that I can easily snap and tap. I then draw my heparin and pick my scabs and then when every thing is ready, I do a final snap and tap. Well actually a series of snap and taps and I tap the pressure pod itself.

The other thing I do is to snap and tap the white line after I hook up the white to white. If you do this, there is very little air bubbles left when you do your rinseback.
Peter, actually it works quite well. I have used this approach for months and see all the air come out when I do this. I havent had a single air alarm since I started this. I know others who do it also and claim the same sucess. Try it. It clears the saline line as well as the blood lines.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 02, 2014, 09:55:21 AM
Yeah that all would work. I use 1 inch needles and blood flow rate is 450. At 350 I'd be on for 6 hours. I have 30 litres of dialysate and an ff of 40. Andto add to an answer to another question you asked me, I am 6'T3'' and my dry weight is 120.5 KG. Using bags is not that inconvenient to me... like a mini workout.
Your blood flow speed is very high and can and may have actually damaged your fistula.  Dr. John Agar in Australia cant iamgine ever running a patient at over 340 blood speed. he prefers down around 220 . I run ours at 340. Speed over 350 can stun the heart , and damage the fistula . In Australia they rarely see the damage we see in fistulas here in the US at our higher speeds. 450 is a killer speed.
You can turn your FF way up and run the dialysate speed at 10 liters per hour and get 3 hour treatment at 30 liters. that is exactly what we do . Our FF runs about 50%. We run the blood at 340. That gets us 63 liters of blood cleared. You are running your FF too slow.
Now the other issue is your total volume of dialysate. You are running 30 liters. My wife who weighs 52 kg and is 5ft2 inch uses 30 liters , 5 days per week. With your size you should really be at closer to 40 to 50 liters. Have your nephrologist run the numbers for you on the on line calculator. You might feel better on more dialysate.  You could run 40 liters at max. speed of 12 liters per hour and that would take 3 houres 20 min.  . At 50 liters and 12 liters per hour it would be just over 4 hours.   Nxstage had patients on too low a dialysate in the past and now it appears they are upping it based on the on line calculator. We started at 20 liters which wasnt enough and at 30 my wife feels a lot better.
If you have questions, ask .
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: russ9320 on February 02, 2014, 04:53:11 PM
I started with a ff of 44 and 25 liters of dialysate. My kt/v was under 2. That is why my ff went down and my liters went up.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 03, 2014, 04:46:53 AM
Actually the FF is an artificially created number for Nxstage that has little effect on dialysis. It is the volume that matters. Volume of dialysate and then to a lesser degree volume of blood. When you increased to 30 liters you increased volume that is why the numbers changed. As you increase the volume of dialysate you increase clearances. That is why you need more. You are still running low at 30 liters.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: russ9320 on February 03, 2014, 11:00:50 PM
That is true but lowering the FF causes you to process more blood. The problem with increasing volume is the warmer lines only fit 45 liters.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 04, 2014, 02:06:51 AM
45 liters is a lot more than 30, 50% more.   You should have your nephrologist run your numbers on the on line calculator and you and he/she will see what volume you really need. I ran numbers on a generic patient about your size and it came out between 40 and 50 liters. Blood volume is a lot less important on Nxstage then dialysate volume.   
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 18, 2014, 08:47:55 AM
WE just got our numbers from the last blood draw. My wifes URR( urea reduction ratio) was  64% . That is with the new 30 liter treatments. We used to be at 20. It is higher than it used to be . She used to get 55% or less.  So increasing the dialysate from 20 to 30  has at least shown up on the blood tests. I realize that URR is not that important in reality but it is all we have.  It shows with her at least NxStage is doing a good job .
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 25, 2014, 07:51:21 AM
This next paragraph was part of a recent journal article on more frequent dilaysis (5 to 7 days per week) like Nxstage. The whole article discussed many advantages, but cardio-vascular were the most important.

'Registry-based data are suggestive that daily HD may be associated with CV mortality rates superior to conventional therapy [7–9] and akin to those seen in patients receiving cadaveric renal transplantation.'

So another point for Nxstage daily dialysis.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Simon Dog on February 25, 2014, 07:58:49 AM
Met with my doc yesterday.  My care partner evicted the Baby K (sick of the alarms, me passing out on occasion, etc.) so I am switching to NxStage,  training starts next Monday.   :yahoo;  It's expected to be one week in clinic then one week at my house.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 25, 2014, 09:30:08 AM
Best of luck. I am sure it will be an easy transition. If you have any questions , ask here any time.
My wifes clinic nurse just reported our latest numbers were a KT/v of 3.08 which interestinly enough is almost exactly what Nxstage predicted with our prescription. I was looking at 3 or better and got it.  Nice to see what they predict, does in fact work.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: amanda100wilson on February 25, 2014, 10:31:37 AM
 Russ9323, at your height, I would think that you would need a higher volume of dialysate, 30 liters for your height seems pretty low.  I also wonder if the the S model of the NxStage machine would be a more appropriate option for you?  You may want to ask your doc. And NxStage nurse.  Definately sounds as if they need to use the NxStage Dose Calcalator to determine your needs.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on February 25, 2014, 01:17:38 PM
Another interesting Nxstage story.
Our dialysis home nurse was telling us todya about the 2 new patients in our area using Nxstage after being in center for awhile. They are now over 3 months on Nxstage. One treats 5 days per week , the other 6 days. Both report feeling MUCH better with Nxstage then in center standard dialysis.
The other interesting fact is each reports the same finding my wife does. They feel BETTER during and AFTER dialysis with Nxstage as opposed to how bad they felt with standard dialyisis . In fact the 6 day patient asked if he could go to 7 days as he hates missing a day , as he feels so good after.
So that is 3 patients in our small area all on Nxstage and all 3 reporting similar stories of how much better they feel and prefer Nxstage to conventional dialysis. No one has yet had a negative experience with nxstage.
We were the first here to use it and now the nurses and doctors are beginning to come around to seeing it as positive. Initially they were very negative before we started back in June of 2012.
I wish every dialysis patient could just TRY NxStage for a week or 2 and see how they felt. It might change a lot of the negativity about dialysis. Yes its a lot of work , but if you can feel better its worth it.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 19, 2014, 01:42:46 PM
Sorry, been busy for awhile. Haven't been on here in quite some time.

My HHD nurse has been the one keeping me sane. Whether it be problems with Nxstage or Sterling, it's not just a job, it's an adventure. The quality of the machine is more dependent on DaVita than NxStage. In our area, when you get a machine it comes from a refurbishment center and they are sketchy at best. I have gotten machines which have clearly been dropped, shipped without packaging, never cleaned or sterilized, you get the idea. At best a machine in this neck of the woods will last a year. It's not uncommon to hear that we all have a batch of failures all at the same time. Every area and center has it's own issues. Ours is with equipment. Our HHD nurse is the best by far. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

NxStage has gotten better, but there is still an ongoing issue with air which is a design and implementation issue. I'll cover that in a separate post. As I write this I just finished firing off an email to one of their senior tech's requesting another cycler. The dialysate stepper motor is making a lot of noise. It's more noticeable since I developed a new set of parameters to prime which is much better at removing air, but alas it highlights any deficiencies in the motors since it tends to raise the torque values, but I digress. I just also got my 4th Express Warmer in just over a year. Again, not a great track record, especially since it only gets used rarely.

Russ, you are not pulling air from the pressure, pod, or at least you better not be. I think it was hemodoc who got it, you are cavitating your access, which is not a good thing.

Obsidianom, I have heard that method for clearing air. While it gets rids of the current air, make sure that you are getting rid of all the air. As the saline de-gasses it will release even more air. Too many people do a quick S&T and if they don't see air, onward they go. Getting rid of dissolved air is also very important. To see if you have dissolved air, let it run for about 15 mi and check for air again. If you see the bubbles come back, you still haven't gotten rid of it all just yet. It sounds like you already let it run for awhile, so it may not be an issue.

Hemodoc, you scare me when you say there are "few" bubbles left. There should be zero, none. While the mantra is that micro-bubbles are ok since they won't cause emboli, they are actually detrimental to long term health. When a micro-bubbles(read microscopic) burst, the tissue next to where they have resided, dimples. While this is generally ok for intermittent occurrences in small quantities, large quantities as a hemo patient might see can cause cumulative damage. The tissue damage can be vascular, pulmonary or even cerebral. This is damage that would accrue over say 10-15 years. Studies recommend the use of de-gassers on hemodialysis machines. Get the air out! I have been working for several months now to develop a prime sequence which will keep as much air as possible out of the saline. On top of that a decent amount of recirculation prior to S&T will ensure a minimal amount of air/micro-bubbles in the lines. I'm waiting for results of a secondary test to validate what I have come up with and then I will publish my results.

I haven't read the studies on blood flow yet (I will), but from an engineering viewpoint if your heart is pumping at a rate of nearly 6L/min the difference between 300 or so ml/min and 500 ml/min doesn't seem significant. I promise I will go read the studies for myself. I run at 500 ml/min and it works for me. I get to process close to 90L over just about 3hrs with 30L of dialysate. I'm achieving a clearance of 2.39. However my URR is a bit lower than I'd like. At one point I was around 48. I am higher now, but I can't find the latest lab results. Darn paper mess...

On the plus side, after a little over a year on Home Hemo I am almost completely off BP med's. Fistula aside, that's an awesome accomplishment. I am still tapering the last of my med's and of course I am getting a transplant soon (fingers always crossed), but anticipate being off them hopefully sooner than later. There is always good with the bad.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Hemodoc on March 19, 2014, 03:32:05 PM
Dear Speedy1wrc,  I am not sure if you feel in your reply that I am ADVOCATING leaving the remaining micro-bubbles in since it appears you are chiding me a bit. Not at all my friend. I am simply noting the reality that no matter how carefully you snap and tap and employ recirculation or other methods, you cannot remove all of the bubbles. I spend about 15-20 minutes removing as many as I can. Data shows you can remove over 75% of the bubbles with careful attention, but without bubble traps, you cannot remove them all. To date, we have no commercially available bubble traps but many have been developed and ignored by American dialysis companies. So, I am not at all cavalier about micro-bubbles as you appear to imply. When hooking up, it is almost impossible to not get air in the line and cavitation from high pump speeds develops micro-bubbles during dialysis as well. It is what we live with and is one of the least talked about dangers of dialysis.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22236622
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 19, 2014, 07:28:59 PM
Sorry, I took your comment at face value where you said "few bubbles...". indeed all I hear from NxStage educators and tech support is a few air bubbles are OK. I get tired of it sometimes. With the issues I have been having it's a pet peeve that no one seems to want to address. NxStages official policy as I have been told is that micro-bubbles are ok. I have had an educator look at the bubbles in my lines and shrug their shoulders and say it looks fine. Reading many forum posts I can tell other patients have been told the same thing.

You hit the nail on the head. The high speeds attribute to the amount of air in the system. I've been working on prime settings which slow the whole process down and eliminates a very large amount of the air during dialyze flush. At the point where the dialyzer is being flushed all the pumps start rip roaring away and as I'm sure you've seen there develops a pretty good head in the saline bag. That along with stating with warm saline so far has worked out pretty well in keeping bubbles from forming in the first place. Unfortunately the last few days I've been inundated with bubbles due to a faulty motor. Slight set back.

Changing the prime parameters and recirculating for about 30 tends to leave the lines pretty clear. At least to an unassisted eye. The saline bag which used to be pretty cloudy is now clear. I'm having someone else try it and see what their opinion is. Keep you posted.

Sorry if I took it the wrong way.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Hemodoc on March 19, 2014, 08:17:46 PM
Sorry, I took your comment at face value where you said "few bubbles...". indeed all I hear from NxStage educators and tech support is a few air bubbles are OK. I get tired of it sometimes. With the issues I have been having it's a pet peeve that no one seems to want to address. NxStages official policy as I have been told is that micro-bubbles are ok. I have had an educator look at the bubbles in my lines and shrug their shoulders and say it looks fine. Reading many forum posts I can tell other patients have been told the same thing.

You hit the nail on the head. The high speeds attribute to the amount of air in the system. I've been working on prime settings which slow the whole process down and eliminates a very large amount of the air during dialyze flush. At the point where the dialyzer is being flushed all the pumps start rip roaring away and as I'm sure you've seen there develops a pretty good head in the saline bag. That along with stating with warm saline so far has worked out pretty well in keeping bubbles from forming in the first place. Unfortunately the last few days I've been inundated with bubbles due to a faulty motor. Slight set back.

Changing the prime parameters and recirculating for about 30 tends to leave the lines pretty clear. At least to an unassisted eye. The saline bag which used to be pretty cloudy is now clear. I'm having someone else try it and see what their opinion is. Keep you posted.

Sorry if I took it the wrong way.

No problem. You are quite correct to focus on the micro-bubbles issue as best as you can. Reprogramming the set up is a bit beyond my ability, but the concept is correct. Percolating water in the manner that NxStage does on its prime could be used in many an aquarium to oxygenate the water. I snap and tap when I first begin setting everything up and then do my charting, pick my scabs and then come back to snap and tap a second time. Most of the time I can completely clear any visible bubbles. However, I readily understand that there are microbubbles that I cannot see that I cannot eliminate. I believe that we need to pay more attention to this aspect of dialysis that goes largely unnoticed by researchers and dialysis companies yet has profound clinical impact on every dialysis session.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on March 20, 2014, 03:07:16 AM
Sorry, been busy for awhile. Haven't been on here in quite some time.

My HHD nurse has been the one keeping me sane. Whether it be problems with Nxstage or Sterling, it's not just a job, it's an adventure. The quality of the machine is more dependent on DaVita than NxStage. In our area, when you get a machine it comes from a refurbishment center and they are sketchy at best. I have gotten machines which have clearly been dropped, shipped without packaging, never cleaned or sterilized, you get the idea. At best a machine in this neck of the woods will last a year. It's not uncommon to hear that we all have a batch of failures all at the same time. Every area and center has it's own issues. Ours is with equipment. Our HHD nurse is the best by far. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

NxStage has gotten better, but there is still an ongoing issue with air which is a design and implementation issue. I'll cover that in a separate post. As I write this I just finished firing off an email to one of their senior tech's requesting another cycler. The dialysate stepper motor is making a lot of noise. It's more noticeable since I developed a new set of parameters to prime which is much better at removing air, but alas it highlights any deficiencies in the motors since it tends to raise the torque values, but I digress. I just also got my 4th Express Warmer in just over a year. Again, not a great track record, especially since it only gets used rarely.

Russ, you are not pulling air from the pressure, pod, or at least you better not be. I think it was hemodoc who got it, you are cavitating your access, which is not a good thing.

Obsidianom, I have heard that method for clearing air. While it gets rids of the current air, make sure that you are getting rid of all the air. As the saline de-gasses it will release even more air. Too many people do a quick S&T and if they don't see air, onward they go. Getting rid of dissolved air is also very important. To see if you have dissolved air, let it run for about 15 mi and check for air again. If you see the bubbles come back, you still haven't gotten rid of it all just yet. It sounds like you already let it run for awhile, so it may not be an issue.

Hemodoc, you scare me when you say there are "few" bubbles left. There should be zero, none. While the mantra is that micro-bubbles are ok since they won't cause emboli, they are actually detrimental to long term health. When a micro-bubbles(read microscopic) burst, the tissue next to where they have resided, dimples. While this is generally ok for intermittent occurrences in small quantities, large quantities as a hemo patient might see can cause cumulative damage. The tissue damage can be vascular, pulmonary or even cerebral. This is damage that would accrue over say 10-15 years. Studies recommend the use of de-gassers on hemodialysis machines. Get the air out! I have been working for several months now to develop a prime sequence which will keep as much air as possible out of the saline. On top of that a decent amount of recirculation prior to S&T will ensure a minimal amount of air/micro-bubbles in the lines. I'm waiting for results of a secondary test to validate what I have come up with and then I will publish my results.

I haven't read the studies on blood flow yet (I will), but from an engineering viewpoint if your heart is pumping at a rate of nearly 6L/min the difference between 300 or so ml/min and 500 ml/min doesn't seem significant. I promise I will go read the studies for myself. I run at 500 ml/min and it works for me. I get to process close to 90L over just about 3hrs with 30L of dialysate. I'm achieving a clearance of 2.39. However my URR is a bit lower than I'd like. At one point I was around 48. I am higher now, but I can't find the latest lab results. Darn paper mess...

On the plus side, after a little over a year on Home Hemo I am almost completely off BP med's. Fistula aside, that's an awesome accomplishment. I am still tapering the last of my med's and of course I am getting a transplant soon (fingers always crossed), but anticipate being off them hopefully sooner than later. There is always good with the bad.
With all your obvious knowledge of engineering , you are really missing the boat on biology . You are flogging your fistula as Dr. Agar calls it . Going at 500 blood speed will eventually be lethal to your fistula and can stun the heart. The tissue in the fistula reacts to this speed and the intima lining/cells in the fistula will thicken over time and can lead to stenosis and other issues. This has been proven in studies and in the differance in fistula health in Australia compared to US where they run MUCH slower. There is no reason to run that fast on NxStage. It doesnt gain much. I had Dr. Agar look at this also for me and he felt the same. There is little to gain and MUCH to lose. I never run over 340.
if you like numbers then with the 340 blood speed, we get URR of 62% and KT/V of 3.24.     That is with 30 liters.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on March 20, 2014, 07:46:35 AM
This is interesting article on air bubbles in hemo dialysis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23826686#

One point they made that is interesting. In the middle of the abstract they mention "turbulant blood flow " as one cause of micro air bubbles. That should make everone slow down the blood speed. A recent article Dr. Agar and I have noted discussed how the research found increase in blood speed caused increased turbulance at the venous return site needle. So to extrapolate, speed up the blood and you get MORE AIR BUBBLES.  So going at 500 blood speed is dangerous for another reason. 
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on March 20, 2014, 08:07:19 AM
Another interesting article on air bubbles.  One point made is LONGER PRIMING TIME should reduce bubbles. I beleive in that concept. I try to leave the machine for at least 20 minutes at the "23" point to reduce air before snapand tap.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18432587#
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 20, 2014, 05:30:19 PM
Sorry, I took your comment at face value where you said "few bubbles...". indeed all I hear from NxStage educators and tech support is a few air bubbles are OK. I get tired of it sometimes. With the issues I have been having it's a pet peeve that no one seems to want to address. NxStages official policy as I have been told is that micro-bubbles are ok. I have had an educator look at the bubbles in my lines and shrug their shoulders and say it looks fine. Reading many forum posts I can tell other patients have been told the same thing.

You hit the nail on the head. The high speeds attribute to the amount of air in the system. I've been working on prime settings which slow the whole process down and eliminates a very large amount of the air during dialyze flush. At the point where the dialyzer is being flushed all the pumps start rip roaring away and as I'm sure you've seen there develops a pretty good head in the saline bag. That along with stating with warm saline so far has worked out pretty well in keeping bubbles from forming in the first place. Unfortunately the last few days I've been inundated with bubbles due to a faulty motor. Slight set back.

Changing the prime parameters and recirculating for about 30 tends to leave the lines pretty clear. At least to an unassisted eye. The saline bag which used to be pretty cloudy is now clear. I'm having someone else try it and see what their opinion is. Keep you posted.

Sorry if I took it the wrong way.

No problem. You are quite correct to focus on the micro-bubbles issue as best as you can. Reprogramming the set up is a bit beyond my ability, but the concept is correct. Percolating water in the manner that NxStage does on its prime could be used in many an aquarium to oxygenate the water. I snap and tap when I first begin setting everything up and then do my charting, pick my scabs and then come back to snap and tap a second time. Most of the time I can completely clear any visible bubbles. However, I readily understand that there are microbubbles that I cannot see that I cannot eliminate. I believe that we need to pay more attention to this aspect of dialysis that goes largely unnoticed by researchers and dialysis companies yet has profound clinical impact on every dialysis session.
While we as patients have our priorities, manufacturers have theirs. If the Fresenius takes 20 minutes to prime, it's obvious NxStage has to prime in less time. Changing the programming stretches the prime to 20 minutes, and in the scheme of things it's a minor increase. I've gotten rid of the turbulence the best I can, but there are some things I can't control so it's not perfect. I'll go grab the numbers and post them shortly.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 20, 2014, 05:34:32 PM
Sorry, been busy for awhile. Haven't been on here in quite some time.

My HHD nurse has been the one keeping me sane. Whether it be problems with Nxstage or Sterling, it's not just a job, it's an adventure. The quality of the machine is more dependent on DaVita than NxStage. In our area, when you get a machine it comes from a refurbishment center and they are sketchy at best. I have gotten machines which have clearly been dropped, shipped without packaging, never cleaned or sterilized, you get the idea. At best a machine in this neck of the woods will last a year. It's not uncommon to hear that we all have a batch of failures all at the same time. Every area and center has it's own issues. Ours is with equipment. Our HHD nurse is the best by far. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

NxStage has gotten better, but there is still an ongoing issue with air which is a design and implementation issue. I'll cover that in a separate post. As I write this I just finished firing off an email to one of their senior tech's requesting another cycler. The dialysate stepper motor is making a lot of noise. It's more noticeable since I developed a new set of parameters to prime which is much better at removing air, but alas it highlights any deficiencies in the motors since it tends to raise the torque values, but I digress. I just also got my 4th Express Warmer in just over a year. Again, not a great track record, especially since it only gets used rarely.

Russ, you are not pulling air from the pressure, pod, or at least you better not be. I think it was hemodoc who got it, you are cavitating your access, which is not a good thing.

Obsidianom, I have heard that method for clearing air. While it gets rids of the current air, make sure that you are getting rid of all the air. As the saline de-gasses it will release even more air. Too many people do a quick S&T and if they don't see air, onward they go. Getting rid of dissolved air is also very important. To see if you have dissolved air, let it run for about 15 mi and check for air again. If you see the bubbles come back, you still haven't gotten rid of it all just yet. It sounds like you already let it run for awhile, so it may not be an issue.

Hemodoc, you scare me when you say there are "few" bubbles left. There should be zero, none. While the mantra is that micro-bubbles are ok since they won't cause emboli, they are actually detrimental to long term health. When a micro-bubbles(read microscopic) burst, the tissue next to where they have resided, dimples. While this is generally ok for intermittent occurrences in small quantities, large quantities as a hemo patient might see can cause cumulative damage. The tissue damage can be vascular, pulmonary or even cerebral. This is damage that would accrue over say 10-15 years. Studies recommend the use of de-gassers on hemodialysis machines. Get the air out! I have been working for several months now to develop a prime sequence which will keep as much air as possible out of the saline. On top of that a decent amount of recirculation prior to S&T will ensure a minimal amount of air/micro-bubbles in the lines. I'm waiting for results of a secondary test to validate what I have come up with and then I will publish my results.

I haven't read the studies on blood flow yet (I will), but from an engineering viewpoint if your heart is pumping at a rate of nearly 6L/min the difference between 300 or so ml/min and 500 ml/min doesn't seem significant. I promise I will go read the studies for myself. I run at 500 ml/min and it works for me. I get to process close to 90L over just about 3hrs with 30L of dialysate. I'm achieving a clearance of 2.39. However my URR is a bit lower than I'd like. At one point I was around 48. I am higher now, but I can't find the latest lab results. Darn paper mess...

On the plus side, after a little over a year on Home Hemo I am almost completely off BP med's. Fistula aside, that's an awesome accomplishment. I am still tapering the last of my med's and of course I am getting a transplant soon (fingers always crossed), but anticipate being off them hopefully sooner than later. There is always good with the bad.
With all your obvious knowledge of engineering , you are really missing the boat on biology . You are flogging your fistula as Dr. Agar calls it . Going at 500 blood speed will eventually be lethal to your fistula and can stun the heart. The tissue in the fistula reacts to this speed and the intima lining/cells in the fistula will thicken over time and can lead to stenosis and other issues. This has been proven in studies and in the differance in fistula health in Australia compared to US where they run MUCH slower. There is no reason to run that fast on NxStage. It doesnt gain much. I had Dr. Agar look at this also for me and he felt the same. There is little to gain and MUCH to lose. I never run over 340.
if you like numbers then with the 340 blood speed, we get URR of 62% and KT/V of 3.24.     That is with 30 liters.
I did not come up with my prescription. I understand your logic and don't disagree with it. Can you give me an example set of parameters with your goals and I'll see if I can get an ok to run similarly? I played with the calculator awile back and from what I came up with my prescription seemed reasonable. I'd like to compare it to yours.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 20, 2014, 05:50:54 PM
This is interesting article on air bubbles in hemo dialysis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23826686#

One point they made that is interesting. In the middle of the abstract they mention "turbulant blood flow " as one cause of micro air bubbles. That should make everone slow down the blood speed. A recent article Dr. Agar and I have noted discussed how the research found increase in blood speed caused increased turbulance at the venous return site needle. So to extrapolate, speed up the blood and you get MORE AIR BUBBLES.  So going at 500 blood speed is dangerous for another reason.
I was only able to read the abstract, but the premise is spot on. The question is does 500 ml/min cause turbulent flow? Is 500 more turbulent than 340, of course. Remembering that our own little heart pump is churning out 6000 ml/min. Next time I go in to have my fistula checked I'll ask them what kind of flows they are measuring.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 20, 2014, 06:29:12 PM
So, without all the background, here are the settings I have changed to adjust the prime to get rid of all the turbulence. Well, as much as I can. Some thing's aren't able to be adjusted and that's the way it is. I haven't given these to NxStage yet, I will as soon as I can reach the tech I have been working with. This essentially slows the prime from 15 minutes to 20 which isn't much in the overall scheme of things, but it makes a huge difference in air.

First the usual disclaimers. Don't mess with the settings if you aren't comfortable doing it. Check with your center/nurse to see if it's ok. These settings work for me, I don't know if they will work for you. I've been working since January trying many different combinations of settings. I've been going back and forth and then when I though I had something good I needed to change something back. I'm still tweaking them, but I've been ruining these for at least two weeks now and they seem to work pretty well. They were tested on a System One with a 170 cartridge and both the PureFlow SL and bags.


Setting#     Default     New
  19               200        150
  20               450        440
  24               600        200
  29               360        300

If anyone tries these, let me know how they work.

Please Email me at mark@wetzelsracing.com
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on March 21, 2014, 05:28:39 AM
I still see the most important aspect to eliminate air is TIME AFTER prime while at step "23" . The longer you let it sit there the less air. That is absolute. I tend to tap the dialyzer tube while there a few times and clamp the red clamp and this really pushes out the air.  I dont see that cahnging the settings will do much as the final rate limiting step in the equasion is still time in step 23.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on March 21, 2014, 05:37:15 AM
This is interesting article on air bubbles in hemo dialysis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23826686#

One point they made that is interesting. In the middle of the abstract they mention "turbulant blood flow " as one cause of micro air bubbles. That should make everone slow down the blood speed. A recent article Dr. Agar and I have noted discussed how the research found increase in blood speed caused increased turbulance at the venous return site needle. So to extrapolate, speed up the blood and you get MORE AIR BUBBLES.  So going at 500 blood speed is dangerous for another reason.
I was only able to read the abstract, but the premise is spot on. The question is does 500 ml/min cause turbulent flow? Is 500 more turbulent than 340, of course. Remembering that our own little heart pump is churning out 6000 ml/min. Next time I go in to have my fistula checked I'll ask them what kind of flows they are measuring.
The heart pumps into a LARGE vessel , the aorta. It is huge as is the pulmonary artery. The needle in the venous line is small and the point of the article is they found turbulance at every increase in speed.  300 was better than 400 and MUCH better than 500. The needle is an artificial onject inside a vessell that creates turbulance just being there. Then add in the blood speed and you have a nasty turbulant flow getting worse with increased speed.
Bottom line is cliincally we see more fistula damage in countries like the US where the blood speed is higher than in countries like Australia where it is slower. That is really all that matters. Engineers can explain only the physics , not the biology of it.
Wolfs Law in biology can explain some of it. The increase speed causes increased forces that cause biological changes to the lining of the fistula causing it to thicken. That causes stenosis eventually. In this case biology/physiology  trumps physics.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on March 21, 2014, 05:42:03 AM
Sorry, been busy for awhile. Haven't been on here in quite some time.

My HHD nurse has been the one keeping me sane. Whether it be problems with Nxstage or Sterling, it's not just a job, it's an adventure. The quality of the machine is more dependent on DaVita than NxStage. In our area, when you get a machine it comes from a refurbishment center and they are sketchy at best. I have gotten machines which have clearly been dropped, shipped without packaging, never cleaned or sterilized, you get the idea. At best a machine in this neck of the woods will last a year. It's not uncommon to hear that we all have a batch of failures all at the same time. Every area and center has it's own issues. Ours is with equipment. Our HHD nurse is the best by far. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

NxStage has gotten better, but there is still an ongoing issue with air which is a design and implementation issue. I'll cover that in a separate post. As I write this I just finished firing off an email to one of their senior tech's requesting another cycler. The dialysate stepper motor is making a lot of noise. It's more noticeable since I developed a new set of parameters to prime which is much better at removing air, but alas it highlights any deficiencies in the motors since it tends to raise the torque values, but I digress. I just also got my 4th Express Warmer in just over a year. Again, not a great track record, especially since it only gets used rarely.

Russ, you are not pulling air from the pressure, pod, or at least you better not be. I think it was hemodoc who got it, you are cavitating your access, which is not a good thing.

Obsidianom, I have heard that method for clearing air. While it gets rids of the current air, make sure that you are getting rid of all the air. As the saline de-gasses it will release even more air. Too many people do a quick S&T and if they don't see air, onward they go. Getting rid of dissolved air is also very important. To see if you have dissolved air, let it run for about 15 mi and check for air again. If you see the bubbles come back, you still haven't gotten rid of it all just yet. It sounds like you already let it run for awhile, so it may not be an issue.

Hemodoc, you scare me when you say there are "few" bubbles left. There should be zero, none. While the mantra is that micro-bubbles are ok since they won't cause emboli, they are actually detrimental to long term health. When a micro-bubbles(read microscopic) burst, the tissue next to where they have resided, dimples. While this is generally ok for intermittent occurrences in small quantities, large quantities as a hemo patient might see can cause cumulative damage. The tissue damage can be vascular, pulmonary or even cerebral. This is damage that would accrue over say 10-15 years. Studies recommend the use of de-gassers on hemodialysis machines. Get the air out! I have been working for several months now to develop a prime sequence which will keep as much air as possible out of the saline. On top of that a decent amount of recirculation prior to S&T will ensure a minimal amount of air/micro-bubbles in the lines. I'm waiting for results of a secondary test to validate what I have come up with and then I will publish my results.

I haven't read the studies on blood flow yet (I will), but from an engineering viewpoint if your heart is pumping at a rate of nearly 6L/min the difference between 300 or so ml/min and 500 ml/min doesn't seem significant. I promise I will go read the studies for myself. I run at 500 ml/min and it works for me. I get to process close to 90L over just about 3hrs with 30L of dialysate. I'm achieving a clearance of 2.39. However my URR is a bit lower than I'd like. At one point I was around 48. I am higher now, but I can't find the latest lab results. Darn paper mess...

On the plus side, after a little over a year on Home Hemo I am almost completely off BP med's. Fistula aside, that's an awesome accomplishment. I am still tapering the last of my med's and of course I am getting a transplant soon (fingers always crossed), but anticipate being off them hopefully sooner than later. There is always good with the bad.
With all your obvious knowledge of engineering , you are really missing the boat on biology . You are flogging your fistula as Dr. Agar calls it . Going at 500 blood speed will eventually be lethal to your fistula and can stun the heart. The tissue in the fistula reacts to this speed and the intima lining/cells in the fistula will thicken over time and can lead to stenosis and other issues. This has been proven in studies and in the differance in fistula health in Australia compared to US where they run MUCH slower. There is no reason to run that fast on NxStage. It doesnt gain much. I had Dr. Agar look at this also for me and he felt the same. There is little to gain and MUCH to lose. I never run over 340.
if you like numbers then with the 340 blood speed, we get URR of 62% and KT/V of 3.24.     That is with 30 liters.
I did not come up with my prescription. I understand your logic and don't disagree with it. Can you give me an example set of parameters with your goals and I'll see if I can get an ok to run similarly? I played with the calculator awile back and from what I came up with my prescription seemed reasonable. I'd like to compare it to yours.
If you want  a set of parameters I need some info on you. Age , sex, weight, height, hematocrit,  then also days per week on machine, ultrafiltration per week taken off generally, and what you want for a KT/V. ( I do 3.0 for ours as I want better clearance).   
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 21, 2014, 01:25:10 PM
Sure...

53 yrs old, male, 77 kg, hematocrit 35 (latest value I can put my fingers on), 5 days, UF generally around 1.3-1.4L/day, current KT/v is 2.49

Currently I am running 30L around 2:52 blood rate 500 (although I've had some extra free time the last couple days so I've run 450) dialysate during UF runs right around 10 post UF is 11.4 SAK 302 cartridge 170

Thank you!
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on March 21, 2014, 01:38:33 PM
I need height too please.
After I get that I will run some numbers /samples for you to consider and take to your team. I will do that early tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: amanda100wilson on March 21, 2014, 02:38:58 PM
Your team should be able to, and should be accessing the dosing calculators themselves.  I am another person who let's my machine sit after prime.  All the small bubbles are gone and then when you snap and tap, there are just big bubbles to get rid of.  Leaving after prime, also helps dissipate the ones that are in the saline line.  I must agree with Obsidionom.  Not sure why you are fixating on bubble removal whilst putting a strain on your heart by running so fast.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on March 22, 2014, 05:43:11 AM
Sure...

53 yrs old, male, 77 kg, hematocrit 35 (latest value I can put my fingers on), 5 days, UF generally around 1.3-1.4L/day, current KT/v is 2.49

Currently I am running 30L around 2:52 blood rate 500 (although I've had some extra free time the last couple days so I've run 450) dialysate during UF runs right around 10 post UF is 11.4 SAK 302 cartridge 170

Thank you!
Well, I have your info. I didnt have height exactly so I guessed baased on weight to be 5ft. 9 inch.

What it came down to was THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERANCE IN THE PARAMATERS AT THE FIRST RECOMMENDED SETTINGS WHETHER BLOOD SPEED IS 350 OR 400 OR 450 OR 500. YOU GAIN NOTHING BY SPEEDING IT UP ABOVE 350.
I got the following for all speeds from 350 to 500.:;:   Time 3:30 , volume 35 liters , dialysate speed 10.0,  projected kt/v, 2.5.

Now if you drop to 30 liters there is a very slight differance in time and dialysate speed , with blood speed changes. Each 50 ml/min slow down from 500 adds up to 10 minutes. So 350 speed requires 4 hours , dialysate speed 7.5,  400 speed requires 3:50 , d speed 7.8 ,  450 and 500 both are at 3:40 , d speed 8.2. So going from 450 to 500 gives no change at all.

Now you ,can continue to stun your heart and damage your fistula at 450 to 500 or drop to 350 and only add a few minutes at 30 liters or no time added at 35 liters.
If it were me I would go to 35 liters and get the max. dialysate and run 350. If you dont want the hassle of 35 liters then go to 30 liters and run a bit longer. Just dropping to 400 will help save your fistula and only add 10 m inutes time. If you are willing to add another 10 minutes then 350 is better. Remeber TIME ON MACHINE IS THE BEST INDICATOR OF BETTER LONG TERM HEALTH.

REMEMBER TOO THIS IS ONLY A GUIDE. DO NOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT DISCUSSING THIS WITH YOUR TEAM , EITHER THE NURSE OR NEPHROLOGIST. WORK WITH THEM . I AM ONLY GIVING THIS INFORMATION FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES. IT IS NOT MEDICAL ADVICE.
 
If I can be of further help, please ask.

Addendum: I never ran your UF rate faster than .5 per hour as that is the fastest speed Dr. Agar beleives is safe.  It allows the fluids to move from compartment to compartment without drawing off fluid faster than it can move between compartments.  You may be doing it faster currently and that is not good for the heart or other organs.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 23, 2014, 12:05:06 PM
Good guess on te height. I'm actually 5'10", but you were pretty darn close.

I will talk to my nurse and see what she thinks. I think the only objection would be wasting 25L of dialysate every treatment.  I suppose it would also mean a lot more SAK changes.

The last two treatments I did run at 450. It added about 17 min overall. I do unfortunately have an issue with time. I get up at 5:55am and some times am then working till midnight. If I start right away doing setup I I am usually getting done pretty close to noon. Too often I am getting only a few hours sleep. Losing any more precious time is hard to justify. Yes, I certain do understand the risks and I try to minimize as many as I can. While testing shows that a high flow can damage a fistula, I guess I am currently an exception. My last fistula ultrasound showed it is performing the same as baseline from 9 years ago. My heart from the last echo a year ago show no changes. I am having my yearly full workup at the end of April and I'll get the latest results.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on March 23, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
There are 50 liter saks so you would only waste 15 liters if you do 35. .  Also you can run 30 liters on a sak and then add 5 liters at the end with a 5 liter solution bag. I have done that . Its easy.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 23, 2014, 06:53:56 PM
I'll run that by my nurse and see what she thinks.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Hemodoc on March 24, 2014, 11:26:29 AM
Good guess on te height. I'm actually 5'10", but you were pretty darn close.

I will talk to my nurse and see what she thinks. I think the only objection would be wasting 25L of dialysate every treatment.  I suppose it would also mean a lot more SAK changes.

The last two treatments I did run at 450. It added about 17 min overall. I do unfortunately have an issue with time. I get up at 5:55am and some times am then working till midnight. If I start right away doing setup I I am usually getting done pretty close to noon. Too often I am getting only a few hours sleep. Losing any more precious time is hard to justify. Yes, I certain do understand the risks and I try to minimize as many as I can. While testing shows that a high flow can damage a fistula, I guess I am currently an exception. My last fistula ultrasound showed it is performing the same as baseline from 9 years ago. My heart from the last echo a year ago show no changes. I am having my yearly full workup at the end of April and I'll get the latest results.
Why stop at 35 liters? I do 40 liters every treatment. I tried to go to 47 liters in a 50 liter bag, but the NxStage sodium levels are too high for me at 140 mmols. But "calculating" an ideal of 35 liters is just one more absurd ploy by NxStage. I would do 60 liter treatments with NxStage if the sodium in their dialysate was 135 instead of 140 mmols. This whole low flow dialysate is a gimmick that likely will not last once other home dialysis machines start competing against NxStage. It is time for NxStage to lower their sodium levels so we can increase to higher clearances with each treatment.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on March 24, 2014, 02:00:29 PM
Do you think the new System S or 3 whichever you prefer to call it is to address the competetion by having the higher dialysate capabilities?
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: cdwbrooklyn on April 02, 2014, 09:50:23 AM
This is for anyone who wants to answer.

Can you measure the blood flow of 500 from NxStage to the blood flow of 500 with in-center?   In-center machines are a lot stronger than NxStage machine.  How can a blood flow of 500 damage your heart from NxStage if the blood flow is not as fast as in-center?  I’m confused regarding blood flows.   

My nurse put my prescription together according to what I was doing in-center after 11 years.  In-center, I ran at 500 blood flow as anything under that made me sick.   I’ve got my heart check in February of this year, and I was told I have a strong healthy heart.  I run at 500 blood flow and have been doing it for 14 years.  Some occasions, I run at 450 blood flow but it does not make me feel better than running at 500 blood flow.   

Anyhoo, I do believe that more dialysis per week will keep you healthier but I’m not into the length of time (6–8 hours) or low blood flows (200-350).  All cases are different and what works for one person may not work for another. 


Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Hemodoc on April 02, 2014, 10:59:37 AM
Do you think the new System S or 3 whichever you prefer to call it is to address the competetion by having the higher dialysate capabilities?

I believe that the 60 liter dosage possible in 4 hours with the makes NxStage a contender with any of the new machines coming on the market. However, I have recently tried to push my 40 liter treatments up to 47 liter and ran into a brick wall from the high sodium levels in their dialysate.

At 45 liters, I can taste and feel the effects of the salt load that for some reason is does not bother me at the 40 liter level. The current system one can run nearly 50 liters in about 4.5 hours. For me, I have already taken NxStage to my only personal max because they use 140 mmols of sodium instead of 135 which would allow me to get near in-center clearances at 60 liters in the same time frame.

If NxStage is going to compete with these other venders,  they must address the sodium issue. Their clearances will be very comparable and they have the advantage of ultra-pure dialysate which is one of the main reasons I went with the NxStage as well as ease of use. Sodium levels not clearance will be the biggest issue in my opinion on how far you can take NxStage.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on April 26, 2014, 05:45:34 AM
Peter, I have been doing some research on sodium concentrations in dialysate and for the most part it is very controversial. This article was interesting to me as they could measure changes using 140 compared with 135 sodium. It appears that 135 can cause hypotension in many patients . In your case you may be better off with 135 , but many other patients wont. So it is hard to justify changing it for everyone . I guess they could come up with 1 sak with lower sodium.

Nephrol Dial Transplant. 2008 Nov;23(11):3629-34. doi: 10.1093/ndt/gfn274. Epub 2008 May 28.

The influence of low dialysate sodium and glucose concentration on volume distributions in body compartments after haemodialysis: a bioimpedance analysis study.

Ozturk S1, Taymez DG, Bahat G, Demirel R, Yazici H, Aysuna N, Sakar S, Yildiz A.

Author information

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Despite the developments in haemodialysis, there are still some difficulties in maintaining the haemodynamic stability. Bioimpedance analysis (BIA) has been proposed for the estimation of dry weight in haemodialysis patients. We aimed to investigate the effects of dialysate sodium and glucose contents on volume distribution in body compartments after haemodialysis by using BIA, a sensitive and reliable method.

METHODS:

Seventeen chronic haemodialysis patients [11 males, 6 females, mean age: 36.9 (18-64) years] were included in the study. Patients were evaluated in three periods. The patients (period 1-P1) underwent haemodialysis with dialysate of 200 mg/dL glucose and 140 mmol/dL sodium for 4.5 h in the middle session of the first week. At the beginning and the end of the session, haematocrit, vital parameters (blood pressure, pulse), ultrafiltrated volume, plasma osmolarity and plasma renin activity were recorded. Also multi-frequency bioelectric impedance analyses (Bodystat Quadscan 4000) were applied to all patients at 5, 50, 100 and 200 kHz, including the impedance index (Z200/Z5). In the second midweek session the same procedure was repeated with same glucose concentration and 135 mmol/dL sodium including dialysate (period 2-P2), and in the third week, it was performed with a dialysate that included 140 mmol/dL sodium and no glucose (period 3-P3).

RESULTS:

The change of the ratio of the intracellular volume to total body weight (ICV/TBW) at the beginning and the end of the session was same in all periods. However, there were significant differences in the change (after/before session) ratio for the extracellular volume/total body weight (ECV/TBW) in P2 compared to other periods (P values for P1-P2: <0.001 and P2-P3: 0.007). Likewise, the same was observed in the changes of impedance (P values for P1-P2: 0.08, P1-P3: 0.44 and P2-P3: 0.063). There was a significant increase of hypotensive events in P2 against the other periods (P = 0.001).

CONCLUSION:

Decreasing dialysate sodium concentration results in important haemodynamic changes but the lack of glucose in dialysate does not result in any changes in haemodynamic and inflammatory parameters. The changes in bioimpedance parameters are parallel to haemodynamic changes in the haemodialysis patients.


PMID: 18508835 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text


Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on April 26, 2014, 05:56:08 AM
On the other hand I did find this which does show improvements when lowering sodium to 135.  So its still controversial . I would continue to push for 1 sak with sodium 135 as an alternative.


Ren Fail. 2014 Feb;36(1):23-7. doi: 10.3109/0886022X.2013.830360. Epub 2013 Sep 2.

Effect of gradually lowering dialysate sodium concentration on the interdialytic weight gain, blood pressure, and extracellular water in anuric hemodialysis patients.

Kim do Y1, Kim B, Moon KH, Lee S, Lee DY.


Author information

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

The majority of hemodialysis (HD) patients are overhydrated and have high interdialytic weight gain (IDWG) which induces increased blood pressure (BP). The positive sodium balance resulting from a high sodium diet, a high dialysate sodium concentration (DNa), or a combination of both is major causes of this disease. We evaluated the effects of lowering DNa on IDWG, BP, and volume status in anuric HD patients with dietary sodium restriction.

METHODS:

Thirty-two patients were enrolled in this study and the period was divided by phase 1 and 2 according to DNa which decreased from 140 to 135 mEq/L at a rate of 1 mEq/L per month; phase 1, 140 mEq/L; phase 2, 135 mEq/L. We compared the IDWG, BP, volume status measured by multifrequency bioimpedance spectroscopy, and adverse events such as intradialytic hypotension, cramps, and headache of both phases.

RESULTS:

The IDWG was significantly reduced by 0.39 ± 0.38 kg (p = 0.000). Pre-dialysis BP showed significant reduction (systolic pressure 146 ± 18 vs. 138 ± 22 mmHg; p = 0.012, diastolic pressure 80 ± 10 vs. 75 ± 11 mmHg; p = 0.008). Pre-dialysis extracellular water (ECW) was reduced significantly by 0.13 ± 2.22 L (p = 0.02). There was no significant increase in adverse events (all p > 0.05).

CONCLUSIONS:

This study showed that gradually lowering DNa could bring a significant reduction in pre-dialysis IDWG, BP, and ECW without increased adverse events. Large and crossover designed study will be needed to demonstrate the clear causal relationship.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on April 26, 2014, 06:01:41 AM
Our home nurse was telling me yesterday they now have 5 more patients starting training with Nxstage. That gives us 8 in our rural area. We were the first and had to fight for it. The nurses were afraid of it at first. Now they LOVE it and are pushing it almost exclusively as the patients feel so much better on it then conventional dialysis. The other interesting aspect is that more patients then ever are doing home hemo here and that is directly because of Nxstage. It is so much easier to use and patients are doing better on it.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: obsidianom on April 26, 2014, 08:05:54 AM
Another advantage to near daily dialysis such as Nxstage is removal of uremic toxins that are protein boundand and hard to remove.

"Removal of indoxyl sulphate and p-cresyl sulphate(p-cresol) can be improved to some extent by increasing the diffusion of the free forms with super-flux membrane HD, increasing the dialyzer transfer area coefficient and dialysate flow, haemodiafiltration,daily HD,------"

Notice that last 2 words, daily HD.  These toxins are very hard to remove with standard 3 day dialysis unless there is more time .


On the other hand note this :

"p-Cresol is a major component in pig odor.[2]
 
p-Cresol is a component in human sweat. It is a component of human odor attractive to female mosquitoes.[3]
 
Temporal glands secretion examination showed the presence of phenol and p-cresol during musth in male elephants.[4][5]"

So guys and gals, we are full of p-cresol that is hard to dialyze out and its in pig sweat, human odor that attracts FEMALE mosquitoes, and male elaphants in musth. There are a WHOLE lot of wise ass remarks I can make about this. Especially to guys and pigsweat and attraction to females----oops , mosquitoes. and like elephant musths.
So the moral of the story, DAILY DIALYSIS TO REDUCE PROTEIN BOUND P-CRESOL or you smell like pig sweat and attract female mosquitoes while in musth.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: Speedy1wrc on April 26, 2014, 03:57:18 PM
All smart remarks aside, I think the biggest keys are as we all know time and dialysate flow. If you do in center for three hours or at home for three hours I don't know if there would be a statistical difference. I do think frequency obviously matters as you aren't so far behind the with ball each treatment. I can see it inasmuch as I have greatly reduced my blood pressure medicine since being on home hemo. In center my dosages were increasing after a year, and now at home after a year, I am almost completely off any blood pressure medicine.
Title: Re: Thank you NxStage
Post by: amanda100wilson on April 26, 2014, 06:00:06 PM
Just Before my diagnosis of CKD was made, many 'eons' ago when We were living in Hong Kong, I used to get bitten very badly by mosquitoes, much more so than my husband.  After that we moved to Cyprus, and when I went outside, I used to have a swarm of flies around my head, like PigPen out of the Peanuts stories.  I always attributed it yo abnormal blood chemistry.