I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Off-Topic => Off-Topic: Talk about anything you want. => Topic started by: YLGuy on December 14, 2012, 03:46:45 PM
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I am sure many of you heard about this tragedy. I was at dialysis this morning when I remembered that one of my best friends from high school works at the school that this happened at. I did not bring my computer to dialysis so I could not check on her status. She also has a very young daughter. I could not bring myself to call her and had to wait until I got home to find out if she and her daughter were okay. They are thank God. They are in my thoughts and prayers along with so many of the other families.
NEWTOWN, Conn.—A gunman opened fire at a Connecticut elementary school where his mother worked, killing 26 people, including 20 children, law-enforcement officials said, in what could be the worst mass shooting at a U.S. elementary or high school.
The shooter was found dead inside Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, a community of about 27,000 located about 65 miles northeast of New York City. State police said another victim was found dead elsewhere in Newtown, putting the total toll at 28.
WSJ's Alison Fox reports live from the firehouse in Newtown, Conn. where children from the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting have been evacuated. Photo: Twitter.com/AlisonFox.
More:
Streaming Coverage: Live Updates and Video
Metropolis: Newtown School Therapist: Principal 'Didn't Think Twice' About Helping
Metropolis: Teacher Describes Shooting at Newtown School
Washington Wire: Shaken Obama Says Hearts 'Broken,' Pledges Action
Law-enforcement officials identified the suspected shooter as 20-year-old Adam Lanza. Officials said the alleged shooter's mother was a teacher at the school, and she was believed to be among the victims. Earlier, a law-enforcement official incorrectly identified the suspect as Mr. Lanza's brother, Ryan. Authorities didn't identify a motive.
The attack at Sandy Hook, a historic village lined with colonial homes in Newtown, began at about 9:40 a.m. and was concentrated around a single classroom, a school bathroom and a hallway, an official said.
Diane Day, a therapist at the school, was sitting with the principal, Dawn Hochsprung, other staff members and a parent in a routine meeting around 9:30 a.m. when she heard gunshots. "We were there for about five minutes chatting and we heard, 'pop pop pop,' " she said. "I went under the table."
Ms. Hochsprung and school psychologist leaped out of their seats and ran out of the room, Ms. Day said. "They didn't think twice about confronting or seeing what was going on," she said. Ms. Hochsprung was killed in the massacre.
Without a lock on the door, the school's lead teacher pressed her body against the door to hold it shut, Ms. Day said. That teacher was shot through the door in the leg and arm. "She was our hero," Ms. Day said.
Shock, Tragedy at Connecticut School
View Slideshow
Newtown Bee/Reuters
Connecticut State Police led children from the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., after a shooting there Friday.
Enlarge Image
Lt. J. Paul Vance, a spokesman for the Connecticut State Police, said that multiple law-enforcement agencies were engaged in "search-warrant activity." Lt. Vance said investigators were looking "both in and out of state" for information on the gunman but assured the public that they weren't at risk.
A federal law-enforcement official said a .223 Bushmaster rifle was found in the back of a vehicle at the scene. Two firearms were recovered near the alleged gunman's body: a Glock and a Sig Sauer, both handguns.
The scene was chaotic as initial reports of a shooting grew steadily worse. Joe Wasik, whose daughter, Alexis, is in the third grade at the school, said his wife called him a little after 10 a.m. after receiving a text from the town's automated alert system on her phone. Checking his laptop, Mr. Wasik saw the reports of a shooting and raced to the scene.
"There were cars everywhere," he said, describing a crush of parents at a nearby firehouse where parents were sent to look for their children among those evacuated from the school.
Alexis, who was standing in the crowd, crying, was "a nervous wreck," he said. Mr. Wasik said his daughter had sheltered in a closet during the shooting, and he wasn't sure if she had heard the shots.
Mr. Wasik's wife took their daughter to a cousin's house to play in an attempt to take her mind off the shooting. He remained in the firehouse to wait for a friend, who was sequestered in another room at the firehouse—an area for parents whose children were still missing.
Mr. Wasik's voice was still shaking, hours after the massacre. "Pretty much everyone has dispersed, except for parents with missing children," he said.
President Barack Obama was notified of the attack around 10:30 a.m. by his counterterrorism and homeland security adviser, John Brennan, White House press secretary Jay Carney said.
Enlarge Image
Reuters
A young boy was comforted outside Sandy Hook Elementary School after a shooting Friday.
Deadliest Mass Shootings
From University of Texas at Austin to Columbine, take a look back.
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Mr. Obama spoke on the phone with Federal Bureau of Investigation Director Robert Mueller and Connecticut Gov. Dan Malloy to receive an update on the situation and express his condolences, Mr. Carney said.
Mr. Malloy, in a news conference Friday afternoon, said "you can never be prepared for this kind of incident," adding that what happened "will leave a mark on this community and every family impacted."
Mr. Obama delivered an emotional statement from the White House Friday afternoon, tearing up several times as he spoke of the children who were killed. "They had their entire lives ahead of them—birthday, weddings, kids of their own," Mr. Obama said pausing to wipe tears from his eyes.
Saying he was reacting as a parent of two daughters, he called the shooting a "heinous crime" and vowed to press for meaningful action, regardless of the politics, to prevent more such incidents in the future. "We've endured too many of these tragedy in the last few years," he said.
The death toll at Sandy Hook Elementary, which has nearly 600 students in kindergarten through 4th grade and 42 teachers, exceeds the death at Columbine High School in 1999, which left 12 students and one teacher dead at the hands of two fellow students, who also took their own lives.
In 2007, 33 people including the gunmen were shot and killed on the campus of Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va.
Schools nationwide have increased security measures since the fatal shooting at Columbine. Many installed metal detectors, developed detailed crisis plans, implemented policies to keep school doors locked and accessible only by buzzer, and put teachers and staff through training session on how to recognize and deal with threats.
Michael Dorn, executive director of Safe Havens International, a nonprofit that works with thousands of U.S. schools to develop safety plans, said there has been a dramatic improvement in school safety "but so much more" could be done.
New details on the shooter at Sandy Hook Elementary School: Suspect was a 20-year-old man. Photo: AP Images.
A letter sent to Sandy Hook parents earlier this year described a new security protocol put in place at the school. The protocol requires identification for most visitors who must ring a doorbell to gain entry to the school's front entrance, which is locked after 9:30 a.m.
"If our office staff does not recognize you, you will be required to show identification with a picture ID," the letter said.
Leigh Libero's daughter, Joey, would have been in a second-grade classroom Friday morning, but she had a dentist appointment. As Ms. Libero pulled up to the school, she saw just-erected barricades and received an urgent text message from her sister, who works at a television news station in Hartford.
Children were led out the school's driveway, directly to the firehouse, where parents streamed in "en masse" to locate their children, Ms. Libero said. "This is the perfect New England town," Ms. Libero said. "You wouldn't think of this."
Ms. Libero said parents were trying to determine how the gunman entered the school. The school uses a double-secured door during the day, she said. Visitors approaching the school must press a button to be buzzed in through the outer set of school doors to enter the building.
Carrie Usher, a fourth-grade teacher at Sandy Hook, was having a team meeting with three other teachers while her class worked in the library. They heard gunfire and then the loudspeaker came on with "fighting and crying and maybe some screaming," sounds of chaos that she said were being broadcast throughout the building.
"The gunfire was just unbelievable it felt like it lasted for five minutes. It wouldn't stop," she said.
Three of the teachers jumped out the window of their meeting room, Ms. Usher said, while the fourth remained behind and hid behind bags and boxes. The door opened and someone came in but that person didn't see the hiding teacher.
Ms. Usher is still uncertain what was broadcast over the loudspeaker. "I think it was fighting," she said in a phone interview. "I think it was the principal before she was killed put that out there to warn the teachers what was happening. I believe so. We don't know."
—Carol E. Lee, Jared A. Favole, Tedd Mann, Jacob Gershman, Alison Fox, Stephanie Banchero, Jack Nicas and Sophia Hollander contributed to this article.
Write to Tamer El-Ghobashy at tamer.el-ghobashy@wsj.com and Devlin Barrett at devlin.barrett@wsj.com
Corrections & Amplifications
Law-enforcement officials have corrected the identity of the suspected shooter as Adam Lanza. Earlier, a law-enforcement official had incorrectly identified the suspect as Mr. Lanza's brother, Ryan.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323297104578179271453737596.html
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Marc,
Even though your friend and her daughter were not injured by gunshots, they were still injured. The psychological assault on them may take a long time to heal.
I did not have any media contact during the day and only learned of this tragedy after the children had gone home. I am still terribly shaken by it. We teach peace at our school, but how do you explain when people are not peaceful?
We sang this song yesterday as part of our normal day (you can hear a recording of it by clicking the link for "May All Children":
http://www.musictogether.com/MayAllChildren# (http://www.musictogether.com/MayAllChildren#)
It will be hard for me to lead my students in singing this now. I feel incredibly sad because of this awful event.
Aleta
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Eric Clapton
Tears in Heaven
Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven?
Would you feel the same
If I saw you in heaven?
I must be strong and carry on
'Cause I know I don't belong here in heaven
Would you hold my hand
If I saw you in heaven?
Would you help me stand
If I saw you in heaven?
I'll find my way through night and day
'Cause I know I just can't stay here in heaven
Time can bring you down, time can bend your knees
Time can break your heart, have you begging please, begging please
Beyond the door there's peace I'm sure
And I know there'll be no more tears in heaven
Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven?
Would you feel the same
If I saw you in heaven?
I must be strong and carry on
Cause I know I don't belong here in heaven
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I was at work when I saw it on TV-It is so senseless it takes your breath away- those beautiful babies, those poor families....I hope knowing the nation is mourning with them in the days to come gives them all a tiny bit of solace. Its just heartbreaking.
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I could barely work today when I heard about this. I was so sad, so sad and heartbroken for the families. All this around Christmas time...I don't have kids, but I cannot imagine what these families are going through.
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This breaks my heart... It scares me to think that my 2 year old son may have to deal with something like this... I can remember when I was in elementary school, without a care in the world... I lived 2 blocks from it and walked to school everyday. I live near one now as well, and I hardly ever see children by themselves (which is good), but I think back about my childhood when the world wasn't nearly as scary as it is today. I can't even imagine how these families, friends of these families, can even think about having to bury their loved ones (especially a child!!), and have to have it around the holidays!
I am no where near religious, but my thoughts and "prayers" go out to all these people in hopes that they will get through this.
What made me the most angry about this (besides the fact that this man did it in the first place), is the fact that people have been arguing about it with political rants, and everything on Facebook... people can't even grieve for five minutes or think about how it's a horrible tragedy without bringing up politics... ugh. Makes me sick.
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My 3 kids went to that school. Some one stated it is a typical New England town, and it is. Never in my wildest nightmares did I ever think I could take my kids to school in the morning and never see them again. We will never know what was on that young mans mind as he prepared to go into a school and murder innocent children. I hope and pray that the families of these children AND the adults have a strong faith in God. That is the only way for them to live thu this.
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I don't know what the answer is. No guns? or maybe arm the teachers. Maybe if the Principal had a gun in her desk she could have ended the punk's life before he took 27 lives? Then he offed himself! Saved the taxpayers a ton of money. There are a lot of sick people out there. I don't know the answer. I'm so sad.
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I am in CT. It is true that Newtown (Sandy Hook) is a very quiet town that you would never, ever believe that this could happen in. My heart breaks for every single family affected, especially the families directly affected.
I have learned today that the Westborough Baptist Church is going to be coming to CT to protest at Sandy Hook Elementary School. This is the same group who protests soldiers funerals. They are happy that this has happened. They have no business here. It's hard enough to lose somebody you love especially with tv camera crews all over the town and publicity all over the world. I am really hoping something can be done to prevent them from being anywhere near the school or even near the town. Here is the link so you can see what I'm talking about: http://www.examiner.com/article/connecticut-school-shooting-westboro-baptist-church-planning-to-picket
I can't imagine (as has been stated) sending a child to school in the morning, never expecting to see your child again. The worst part is that parents really didn't know until they started coming to the school for the younger grades Holiday Party. (This was a local news report last night).
This really, really brings the point home of telling your loved ones how much you love them and give an extra hug, just because.
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This shows that simply declaring a place a "gun free zone" does nothing except assure victims (who tend to be law abiding) will be unarmed. The only practical choices are airport style perimeter security or on-site response (heavy police presence or trained and armed teachers/faculty).
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Sadly, this sort of thing seems to happen all too regularly. I can't say that I've ever been to Connectcut, but I have been to Oslo in Norway, where and even bigger massacre took place last year. I don't know why these tragedies occur in today's day and age. It's a shame that deadly weapons can be so easily obtained. In an ideal word, this sort of thing would never happen. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.
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The WBC people just really cheese me off. I will tell you if anyone, I mean anyone, came near my child's funeral to protest, they damn well better be prepared for their own funeral to be held!
I hope the families of these babies who died are given the peace and tranquility they need to bury their babies and some how begin again.
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These killers seem to be following a pattern. They dress up in military gear, arm themselves to the hilt and go out and mow people down.
I have two questions...why does anyone need a firearm like the one Adam Lanza used? Does anyone use a gun like that for hunting?
AND:
Another common thread is mental illness. These killers clearly are ill, and we need to make sure we are better at identifying and treating these people. I propose a 5% added MHT...a Mental Health Tax levied on all firearm purchases. Since the Federal gov't has no more money and we want to control spending, let the individuals who buy these weapons pay for more/better access to mental health assessments/treatments.
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The WBC people just really cheese me off. I will tell you if anyone, I mean anyone, came near my child's funeral to protest, they damn well better be prepared for their own funeral to be held!
I hope the families of these babies who died are given the peace and tranquility they need to bury their babies and some how begin again.
I thought they protested at military funerals. Am I missing something?
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They are protesting because "parents voted for gay marriage"
and "god hates fags" you know *rolls eyes*
It is SICK and these jerkoffs should be stopped.
i hear there will be a counter protest to try and block the WBC from being seen by the families.
I have a feeling something bad and big is going to happen...
Whats also sad about this is the media giving the shooter so much attention, while not giving the children and teachers the attention. I dont think they sould even say that asshats name. Say something like, "the shooter, who we wont name and give any attention to..." because giving them this attention is part of the reason it keeps happening... and then the gun control bs... smh
THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON IS THE CHILDREN AND FAMILIES THAT WERE EFFECTED BY THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Westboro Church thrives on publicity. The most powerful thing you can do to them is ignore them if you are unlucky enough to ever cross paths with them. Watch The Most Hated Family in America and the sequel, The Most Hated Family in America in Crisis if you want to see Louis Theroux declaw them. He points out that they do the most violence to themselves with all of this hate that, as he puts it, is reflected back at them.
This shows that simply declaring a place a "gun free zone" does nothing except assure victims (who tend to be law abiding) will be unarmed. The only practical choices are airport style perimeter security or on-site response (heavy police presence or trained and armed teachers/faculty).
This shows nothing of the sort! Oh my god, arming the faculty at a primary school??!! I don't even... what?
I don't believe there is any one factor responsible for these episodes, but I believe a culture that glorifies violence as the US does, an appalling record of treating mental illness as MM mentioned, and an unforgiving "every man for himself" attitude masquerading as some sort of virtuous, rugged individualism are all partially to blame. As the saying goes, if guns made a country safer, America would be one of the safest places in the world.
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Whats also sad about this is the media giving the shooter so much attention
This is a huge part of the problem. Every loser headcase knows that he can be front page news, get a direct response from the president, and be known by name to every household in the country if he does something like this. In a year or two, lots of people will remember the villains name but far fewer will remember the names of any of the victims.
Oh my god, arming the faculty at a primary school??!! I don't even... what?
Hard to argue with logic like that.
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I believe strongly that this isn't a gun issue, and of course NOT because of gay marriage being passed in the state. More funding should go in to mental health research, and keeping those of which with mental illness on medication and in counseling.
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Every loser headcase knows that he can be front page news, get a direct response from the president, and be known by name to every household in the country if he does something like this. In a year or two, lots of people will remember the villains name but far fewer will remember the names of any of the victims.
I disagree with this. There have been so many shooters and so many victims that quite honestly I don't remember the names of any of them (except Gabby Giffords).
Dismissing the people who are the shooters by calling them "loser headcases" is part of the problem. This is indicative of how we treat those who are mentally ill. Now put a powerful weapon in his hands and look what you get.
Naming the shooter and exploring what motivated him to do such a horrible thing is not "glorifying" him. It is, rather, an effort to answer that ever present question, "Why?"
Anniq83, why do you so strongly believe that this is not a gun issue? Can you perhaps tell me why any private citizen would need a weapon like the one this kid used to kill these people? I will keep asking this question until someone can give me a logical and coherent question. I have now asked twice, and I am still awaiting an answer.
Oh, and if you are calling for "more funding" for mental health research, who do you propose should pay for it?
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I lean towards the "more funding" for the mentally ill. Not that those with dementia are usually going to go out and get a gun, the point is, the families need help dealing with this. They used to have asylums everywhere, and it was one of the first things to be cut, years ago. People who are insane can look very normal and you would not know, until they flip out, or stop taking their meds, then they are uncontrollable, and the problems begin. Where would the funding come from? I dont know, but I do know we are still sending money to other countries and helping others. We need to address this problem before any more damage was done.
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Uhm, I just read that the US spends about 10 times as much on wars, than it does on actual aid abroad?
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MM
I dont know if this is a good answer, but i have one :)
My dad has guns, lots of guns, you could say hes a gun collector... He keeps them locked in a heavy duty safe. He loves to hunt, so most of them are the rifles? i think thats what they are called. but he also has hand guns. One I know he has for security lol the others are heirlooms? passed down from other family members...
Now, you asked why anyone would 'need' a gun like that? I dont really think they do, because you can protect yourself just as easily with a rifle, or hell, even a muskette. People did that for a long time, didnt they? But it is a faster weapon. if your busy loading while someone is trying to hurt you or your family, your screwed. My dad is a good man, and loves his guns, it would be sad to see someone take that away. I personally stand on the side that if a criminal wants a gun, they will find a way, gun control or not... And if the government cant protect us, or refuse to, then we have to be able to protect ourselves. And who knows, might have to protect ourselves from them!
And I do agree with both on the case of the shooter. I think what I said was both right and wrong. We do need those questions answered, but not in the way that totally makes the guy memorable. I guess I said that right...
And we do need more mental health funding. Its really unfortunate, that we have doctors without boarders willing to go overseas to help for free, but none here helping like that. instead, its expensive! Ive been dealing with mental health facilities since i was 11, and I personally dont see that they do much good anyway. Most of the people ive seen arent that great at what they do. (of course I go to the cheap places... i think maybe thats the problem lol) A good one would cost me an arm and a leg, and doubt insurance would cover it.
My brother recently lost his mind, and his insurance only covers like 6 visits a year, something he definitely needs A LOT more of! Hes batshit crazy...
There will always be people like this, killing innocent people. Their reasoning can be anything, and the result wont change. Some people just suck. Some people cant be helped, Some dont want to be helped.
And having gun control or better mental health programs probably wont change that, there are other weapons, other ways...
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Oh my god, arming the faculty at a primary school??!! I don't even... what?
Hard to argue with logic like that.
I believe the logic of the response should match the logic of the proposal. :beer1;
This does beg the question, which you are welcome to ignore, when was the last time you were in a classroom full of six and seven year olds? (the age of these victims). For me, the answer would be just over 5 hours ago, which might be why I didn't feel it necessary to bullet point the many, many terrifying possibilities that would come from a plan like this being implemented. My American friend and I were talking about how this would have been our kids if this had happened at their school. I took the "arm the faculty and staff" suggestion straight to mothers of six and seven year olds from 3 different countries, and the response was less than supportive.
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All I can say is I have never been more embarrassed and ashamed of being an American. We are a nation over run with red necks who think that their right to have an assault weapon and the ammo to go with it trumps their neighbor's right to safety in their own home and communities. Some of our most recent mass murderers obtained their arsenal legally, like that creep in Aurora. Why was he allowed to do this? Not only should a thorough background check be done at the time of purchase, but a thorough mental evaluation should be done as well. In fact, gun ownership should be a licensed right. Pass a thorough background check and major psych eval in order to get your license. When you buy your gun and arsenal, every piece should have an identification number that is entered into a database under your name. You must be required to purchase a secure locked safe for your guns, and be required by law to keep them under lock and key. If your gun gets in someone else's hands, you will be responsible for the carnage they may create. Can't handle that kind of responsibility? Then don't own a gun. It's that simple. This mother of the gunman should NEVER have had such weaponry and arsenal in her home, knowing full well she had a son with some mental type problems. Parents need to take responsibility for their children. If you have children and guns in the home, educate them on what they do and how dangerous they are. If your kid has anger issues, then man-up or woman-up and get those guns OUT OF YOUR HOME!!!! Accept the fact that if you cannot 100% guarantee the safety of your weapon, then your death that you're trying to prevent is better than the deaths of your neighbors if that gun gets in the wrong hands.
I am so spitting angry at ALL of this. I wish to hell I could get out of this god-forsaken country.
KarenInWA
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All I can say is I have never been more embarrassed and ashamed of being an American. We are a nation over run with red necks who think that their right to have an assault weapon and the ammo to go with it trumps their neighbor's right to safety in their own home and communities. Some of our most recent mass murderers obtained their arsenal legally, like that creep in Aurora. Why was he allowed to do this? Not only should a thorough background check be done at the time of purchase, but a thorough mental evaluation should be done as well. In fact, gun ownership should be a licensed right. Pass a thorough background check and major psych eval in order to get your license. When you buy your gun and arsenal, every piece should have an identification number that is entered into a database under your name. You must be required to purchase a secure locked safe for your guns, and be required by law to keep them under lock and key. If your gun gets in someone else's hands, you will be responsible for the carnage they may create. Can't handle that kind of responsibility? Then don't own a gun. It's that simple. This mother of the gunman should NEVER have had such weaponry and arsenal in her home, knowing full well she had a son with some mental type problems. Parents need to take responsibility for their children. If you have children and guns in the home, educate them on what they do and how dangerous they are. If your kid has anger issues, then man-up or woman-up and get those guns OUT OF YOUR HOME!!!! Accept the fact that if you cannot 100% guarantee the safety of your weapon, then your death that you're trying to prevent is better than the deaths of your neighbors if that gun gets in the wrong hands.
I am so spitting angry at ALL of this. I wish to hell I could get out of this god-forsaken country.
KarenInWA
I do know for a fact, if you have any mental health history background, you cant legally buy a gun or get a foid card (at least, thats how it is in Illinois, idk about other places.) I also know for a fact that if you already have a foid card (the thing you have to have to buy and use a gun) and you end up going nuts for a moment, they take that right away. (happened to my brother!!)
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l. I took the "arm the faculty and staff" suggestion straight to mothers of six and seven year olds from 3 different countries, and the response was less than supportive.
I wasn't thinking in terms of having the teacher standing in front of the class with a gun on the belt or rifle slung over the shoulder, but having some defensive weaponry available to a select few first responders who are properly trained in their use - both from a technical perspective (how to shoot) and legal/policy perspective (knowing when to shoot and when not to shoot). Emphasis on properly trained. If there is a hang-up on the concept of "arming teachers", commission them as special police officers. It's no different that having AEDs on the wall, except that you don't need as extensive security procedures to make sure that unauthorized people don't try to use an AED. The US already does this with pilots - commercial pilots who get the proper training are able to be armed while driving the plane. (No training and background/psych check means the pilot remains unarmed).
Thinking has shifted towards "immediate response" in active shooter scenarios. Pre-Columbine, procedure was to secure the perimeter, call for SWAT, and wait it out. Experience has shown time is of the essence, and the trend is now for police to pair up and enter immediately - even if the tac team is not yet on site.
Asking the mothers of kids for their "expert" opinion is like getting advice from a sick person on what antibiotic they need (if any), or asking a defendant in a criminal trial about legal strategy. "Involvement" does not make one an expert. I can quote several police officers who would favor arming properly trained teachers. The unions would love it because it would no doubt require a pay differential.
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I've watched this whole thing unfold on TV because I'm healing from a fistula revision and have to stay down with my arm propped up.
I think these violent video games have a lot to do with it. I don't see them so I'm still thinking pac-man is a video game. But, they were talking about some of these games that kids play HOURS on END every waking moment. What parent would allow that? The parent who wants left alone to talk on the phone or go shopping and knows the kid won't move if they are gone for a few hours. They should be banned! We should have the military go house to house and confiscate ALL of them! I realize that is not going to happen but it would be a good thing. My Gosh, our kids are so desensitised to violence and murder. From age 3 and up they play these games. Then they grow up and go do it.
In China, I believe it was, some idiot went into a day care and hacked up everyone with a knife? Do we take those away. Take the guns away from everyone and the creeps will still get them.
It wouldn't hurt to take this Adam kid even though he is dead and hang him from the highest tree and let his body rot. Now, again, I know this will not happen but it use to in the old west. Maybe would make a mental case think twice if there were more consequences. I mean this guy who killed people hunting down Gabby Giffores..... IS still going to have a Trial? What the heck for? He should be publically, National TV and all, SHOT.... starting with his dick and going down then up. There are no consequences for these mental cases. Oh, poor boy had a mother who loved him too much..... Really?
When Obama talks about.... Do we do enough to protect our children in this country, Do we show them our love and do they know they are safe here able to grow up and live their dreams ..... I can't help but think of the 20+ abortions that happened that morning or the 52 million babies who this country has allowed to be killed. I just can't help but think of them. He weeps over little kids being murdered but allows partial birth abortions? How can we make sense of that senseless act. Should we spend more money on mental health for those scared young girls who just want out? Maybe provide a safe place for them to have their babies and not kill them and have to live with that the rese of their lives? I'm just thinking outloud here.
Well, nothing I've said will change anything but I am allowed to think it and write it. It is just my thoughts after watching this all weekend.
Oh, and the MEDIA is so rude. That poor State Trouper who has to say again and again..... We will have to wait until further investigation. Then some bitch will say. Can you tell us what the scene looked like? I wish he would just say "listen anymore rude questions and you can forget anymore information." Vultures! GEEZ....
Oh, and did you watch the "Multi-Faith" vigil last night. That was weird! I thought the first guy said it all, then that next guy started singing "Ahhhh LUBBA LUBGBA". I thought it would NEVER end. I bet Obama thought that too. I wonder if the Atheist ever got his chance to get up and say "your kids are dead and there is no heaven... sorry... lights out and that is all". Nice hua?
:waiting;
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l. I took the "arm the faculty and staff" suggestion straight to mothers of six and seven year olds from 3 different countries, and the response was less than supportive.
Asking the mothers of kids for their "expert" opinion is like getting advice from a sick person on what antibiotic they need (if any), or asking a defendant in a criminal trial about legal strategy. "Involvement" does not make one an expert. I can quote several police officers who would favor arming properly trained teachers. The unions would love it because it would no doubt require a pay differential.
Wow. How spectacularly offensive of you. We are these kids PARENTS and we should have the ultimate say in whether or not we want guns on site, whether we want essentially an airport atmosphere in our children's schools. Yes, think about this for a moment. All the people - people specifically trained in security - who say that airport security is an outright laugh and only gives the illusion of safety. THAT is what you are suggesting for our schools? THAT is the type of atmosphere you would place MY six-year-old in and you don't think I'm an expert on whether or not that's a good idea? I know we're just a group of silly females who couldn't POSSIBLY know how security works, you obviously know what makes an expert in schooling and children much more than I do. I don't care how extensive psych checks are - people can pass them year after year, month after month, it just takes that moment of insanity, carelessness, stupidity, or being overpowered or outsmarted by an assailant and you have a monumental tragedy on your hands. Then you can answer to the mothers who warned you that it would happen and explain to them how little they know about schools and security. Oh, and my husband thinks it's a horrendous idea, too. I mentioned that a suggestion had been made on IHD and he said (jokingly) "What, arm the teachers?" when I told him he guessed it, he blurted out "Oh, you jest!" If only.
Jesus, really? This is really what it's come to? Out of the thousands of schools, there is one tragedy every year or so and the answer is to arm each school to the teeth rather than examine what these people have in common that drove them over the edge and why this is not such a huge problem in other countries?
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WOW, Caraid, how insulting to this guy who may be a parent too. Lots of parents may think just like him. That is where the problem is, they don't all Agree with you and your husband.
Really? You have your opinion so don't call his opinion crazy.
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are we really fighting about this? seems counter productive...
Putting my 2 cents in, no one will ever agree. Different parents, different methods, different beliefs, different children... different schools... etc etc etc
Also, I think that I have to say, as a parent, that yes it was kind of scary letting my son go today, but this type of thing has happened before, it will probably happen again, but unless you want to be a hermit and homeschool, you have to send them. How many of you are avoiding malls right now because of the shooting that happened there? how many of you will avoid stepping outside to see some law person make an appearance, after all, some dude decided to shoot that up too.. and are we any more safe in our homes or neighborhoods? home envasions happen too. And sometimes they are even more brutal than the shootings, and with different weapons, sometimes knives from your own kitchen.
Some People are being kind of unreasonable right now. Yes, it was tragic, terrible, and I still cant believe it happened. I wish it hadnt happened, and I too was scared and saddened, and worried... but then reason set in, and I was brought to the conclusion that we need to continue to live our lives. Not only for our own sake, but because We CAN. There are people who died from these tragedies, and their families, friends, and communities, who lost a piece of themselves because of these tragedies. Yes, please, pray for them or whatever you believe. Yes, mourn for them. Worry that it could happen, because it could, BUT hope that it wont. And stop fighting and arguing about things we cannot change. Why do that? Love one another and be happy that we will live another day, and our families are whole, because not all have that luxury right now.
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WOW, Caraid, how insulting to this guy who may be a parent too. Lots of parents may think just like him. That is where the problem is, they don't all Agree with you and your husband.
Really? You have your opinion so don't call his opinion crazy.
I did not call his opinion crazy, so please don't scold me for something I did not do. I have been called crazy twice in recent memory on this site (not by SimonDog, to be clear) so I would appreciate a bit of consistency if mods are going to call me out for voicing my feelings. I was following SD to an extent until he compared a group of mothers to other examples of ignorant people. How does he know I wasn't talking to mothers who are also security experts themselves?
I am a little surprised that you did not pick up on the irony of saying that asking these mothers would be like asking a patient what antibiotic they should take. I tell doctors all the time which antibiotic I should take! That's rather the point of IHD, isn't it?
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Gothic, you are really making sense today..... what are you drinking? I want some.
LOL LOVE you!
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Gothic, you are really making sense today..... what are you drinking? I want some.
LOL LOVE you!
Yes, I agree, Rerun! Thanks for that, Goth. You put quite a few things into perspective with that lovely post.
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WOW, Caraid, how insulting to this guy who may be a parent too. Lots of parents may think just like him. That is where the problem is, they don't all Agree with you and your husband.
Really? You have your opinion so don't call his opinion crazy.
I did not call his opinion crazy, so please don't scold me for something I did not do. I have been called crazy twice in recent memory on this site (not by SimonDog, to be clear) so I would appreciate a bit of consistency if mods are going to call me out for voicing my feelings. I was following SD to an extent until he compared a group of mothers to other examples of ignorant people. How does he know I wasn't talking to mothers who are also security experts themselves?
I am a little surprised that you did not pick up on the irony of saying that asking these mothers would be like asking a patient what antibiotic they should take. I tell doctors all the time which antibiotic I should take! That's rather the point of IHD, isn't it?
When I'm acting as a Moderator I will sign it as that. Otherwise I'm just a member and the whole staff knows that if I have to stop speaking my mind I stop helping Moderate this site, and maybe you could do it.
I was pointing out what came to my mind. Probably because I agree with having at least the principal packing. And pilots should pack as well. IMO.
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lol thank you and your welcome
its just my honest opinion of it all.
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WOW, Caraid, how insulting to this guy who may be a parent too. Lots of parents may think just like him. That is where the problem is, they don't all Agree with you and your husband.
Really? You have your opinion so don't call his opinion crazy.
I did not call his opinion crazy, so please don't scold me for something I did not do. I have been called crazy twice in recent memory on this site (not by SimonDog, to be clear) so I would appreciate a bit of consistency if mods are going to call me out for voicing my feelings. I was following SD to an extent until he compared a group of mothers to other examples of ignorant people. How does he know I wasn't talking to mothers who are also security experts themselves?
I am a little surprised that you did not pick up on the irony of saying that asking these mothers would be like asking a patient what antibiotic they should take. I tell doctors all the time which antibiotic I should take! That's rather the point of IHD, isn't it?
When I'm acting as a Moderator I will sign it as that. Otherwise I'm just a member and the whole staff knows that if I have to stop speaking my mind I stop helping Moderate this site, and maybe you could do it.
I was pointing out what came to my mind. Probably because I agree with having at least the principal packing. And pilots should pack as well. IMO.
OK, I honestly did not realise that you were not speaking as a Mod, so sorry for my statement. I've never noticed a difference in your sig (unobservant me!). I love it when you speak your mind, Rerun, I absolutely do, even though we are on opposite ends of the political spectrum - so mod or no, I'd hate to see you stop. However, I am member of IHD because speaking one's mind honestly has historically been encouraged and that's all I was trying to do. I try not to take offense but I really do not know how else to take that last part of the post that set this all in motion - suggesting that we mothers are the last people you would want to consult on this issue.
No, I probably couldn't moderate this site, and with that in mind I try to grab opportunities to tell the mods how much I appreciate them. So c'mere, you! :grouphug;
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OK to you too Cariad.
:cuddle;
:waving;
Uggh we are having such a wind storm. My door wreath almost broke my window! I think my garbage is down!
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MM
I dont know if this is a good answer, but i have one :)
My dad has guns, lots of guns, you could say hes a gun collector... He keeps them locked in a heavy duty safe. He loves to hunt, so most of them are the rifles? i think thats what they are called. but he also has hand guns. One I know he has for security lol the others are heirlooms? passed down from other family members...
Now, you asked why anyone would 'need' a gun like that? I dont really think they do, because you can protect yourself just as easily with a rifle, or hell, even a muskette. People did that for a long time, didnt they? But it is a faster weapon. if your busy loading while someone is trying to hurt you or your family, your screwed. My dad is a good man, and loves his guns, it would be sad to see someone take that away. I personally stand on the side that if a criminal wants a gun, they will find a way, gun control or not... And if the government cant protect us, or refuse to, then we have to be able to protect ourselves. And who knows, might have to protect ourselves from them!
And I do agree with both on the case of the shooter. I think what I said was both right and wrong. We do need those questions answered, but not in the way that totally makes the guy memorable. I guess I said that right...
And we do need more mental health funding. Its really unfortunate, that we have doctors without boarders willing to go overseas to help for free, but none here helping like that. instead, its expensive! Ive been dealing with mental health facilities since i was 11, and I personally dont see that they do much good anyway. Most of the people ive seen arent that great at what they do. (of course I go to the cheap places... i think maybe thats the problem lol) A good one would cost me an arm and a leg, and doubt insurance would cover it.
My brother recently lost his mind, and his insurance only covers like 6 visits a year, something he definitely needs A LOT more of! Hes batshit crazy...
There will always be people like this, killing innocent people. Their reasoning can be anything, and the result wont change. Some people just suck. Some people cant be helped, Some dont want to be helped.
And having gun control or better mental health programs probably wont change that, there are other weapons, other ways...
My father was a member of the NRA. He had a couple of collectible handguns. I can understand how someone would enjoy having such a collection.
While I don't think I could hunt and kill Bambi, I understand that many people enjoy hunting. I do not wish to take away someone else's freedom to do this just becuase I don't like it.
I also understand the pleasure someone could get from shooting at targets, like in the Olympics or at the firing range. I understand that this is a skill.
What I don't understand is why anyone would need or even WANT a weapon like the one used by this shooter, this "Bushmaster" weapon. This is not a weapon what you can conceal/carry, so of what use would it be in "self-defense"?
I understand from the British print media that the shooter's mother was one of these "survivalists", and that's why she had her own private arsenal. She was preparing for the end of civilization as we know it, so that leads me to wonder if mental illness runs in THAT family.
I don't think that any one measure will stop things like this from ever happening again, but if we can save even one more classroom or one more filled cinema complex from tragedies like this, it is worth a try. Just because a measure won't completely solve the problem doesn't mean we should do nothing.
@ Rerun, as for tying abortion with gun control, there are already many, many states that have defunded Planned Parenthood or are aiming to do so in an attempt to halt abortions altogether, so if you really want to go there, we should be doing the same with gun control. Those states that are clamping down on abortion should also be clamping down on guns. There...how about that? But we are seeing the opposite...abortion rights are rapidly dwindling while permission to be armed to the teeth is expanding rapidly. Illinois has been the only state that forbids concealed/carry, but a recent federal decision has now mandated that this is unconstitutional and so the state legislature has 180 days to draft legislation making concealed/carry legal in this state. So, rerun, you are way off base in this regard.
Abraham Lincoln fervently believed that the blood spilled during the Civil War was God's demand for payment for the blood spilled "from the lash" of slavery. I have not been able to escape the thought that the blood of these babies was spilled because we are going down the wrong path and are allowing these evil weapons to dominate our society. We have willingly misinterpreted the Second Amendment, and we are paying the price. With each massacre, God is trying to tell us something, but we refuse to listen. I always knew that something so gruesome would happen that would force us to change our ways. Newtown may be just that.
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It wouldn't hurt to take this Adam kid even though he is dead and hang him from the highest tree and let his body rot. Now, again, I know this will not happen but it use to in the old west. Maybe would make a mental case think twice if there were more consequences. I mean this guy who killed people hunting down Gabby Giffores..... IS still going to have a Trial? What the heck for? He should be publically, National TV and all, SHOT.... starting with his dick and going down then up. There are no consequences for these mental cases. Oh, poor boy had a mother who loved him too much..... Really?
He's going to have a trial because that's what US law demands. Fortunately, even the mentally ill still have a right to a trial in the United States of America. This part of your post is unbelievably cruel and, well, words fail me. Flaming pitchforks come to mind...
Should we spend more money on mental health for those scared young girls who just want out? Maybe provide a safe place for them to have their babies and not kill them and have to live with that the rese of their lives? I'm just thinking outloud here.
Can you really see this set of House Republicans voting for funding for this? Really? I'd be all for it, but please convince Paul Ryan, OK?
Oh, and did you watch the "Multi-Faith" vigil last night. That was weird! I thought the first guy said it all, then that next guy started singing "Ahhhh LUBBA LUBGBA". I thought it would NEVER end. I bet Obama thought that too. I wonder if the Atheist ever got his chance to get up and say "your kids are dead and there is no heaven... sorry... lights out and that is all". Nice hua?
:waiting;
Geez! I thought the Multi-faith vigil was inspiring and of a generous spirit. You could have always just turned the TV off and read a book. And I'm sure that even an atheist could have found comforting words.
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Yes, I am a parent - but the kid is in college now.
As to antibiotics - some patients get it right, but one of the issues docs have to deal with is patients who think they know what drug they need. Sometimes the patients are right; sometimes they are not. My point was that being directly involved in a situation does not make one an expert. (For example, regular toilet use does not make one a plumbing expert).
I also understand the pleasure someone could get from shooting at targets, like in the Olympics or at the firing range. I understand that this is a skill.
You have answered you own question. Google "Three gun competition" to read about legitimate sporting activity in which variants of the AR15 are the dominant rifle platform, or "Camp Perry Service Rifle Competition" to read about formal target shooting with this type of firearm.
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I honestly wasnt aware of the type of gun the dude used, so I am sorry I wasnt informed before posting about it
yes, that it a bit strange that anyone would have that type of gun. but you said yourself she was a survivalist, and idk about you but if we were in the apocolyspse id want a heavy duty something or another to save me lol
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These killers seem to be following a pattern. They dress up in military gear, arm themselves to the hilt and go out and mow people down.
I have two questions...why does anyone need a firearm like the one Adam Lanza used? Does anyone use a gun like that for hunting?
AND:
Another common thread is mental illness. These killers clearly are ill, and we need to make sure we are better at identifying and treating these people. I propose a 5% added MHT...a Mental Health Tax levied on all firearm purchases. Since the Federal gov't has no more money and we want to control spending, let the individuals who buy these weapons pay for more/better access to mental health assessments/treatments.
Dear Moosemom, that is exactly the point and in retrospect, warning signs in the Aurora shooter and this one as well as the Arizona shooter appear to have been over looked and ignored. There are unwanted effects of gun bans such as increased violence evident in England and Australia since their handgun bans. Germany took stringent action against guns after their 2002 school massacre which did not prevent their horrific 2009 school massacre nor did stringent gun laws prevent the horrific Norway massacre as well.
Since it is evident that gun laws alone do not prevent these mass murders, note that CT already has an assault weapons ban since 1994 in effect today, is it not prudent for security evaluations of all American schools implementing security measures effective in preventing or delaying mass shootings? The police response was excellent, but came minutes too late. Security measures that prevent access to class rooms themselves with simple measures to secure the room itself as a safe zone are surprising affordable and easy to to engage. The CT assault weapon ban is one more failure in a long list of gun control failures.
We openly took our hunting rifles and shotguns to school in the 70's when mass shootings were unheard of. Switzerland has the highest level of gun ownership in the world yet they have a low murder rate and low levels of crime in general. If we evaluate these issues objectively, it cannot be shown that guns by themselves are the root cause of our violent society. I fear greatly over reaction to such events leading to gun confiscation which is a long standing objective of this president that we as gun owners knew would rear it's ugly head after his reelection. As always, Obama never wastes a crises to implement his known objectives. Secretary Clinton already supported the UN small arms treaty before this tragedy before us, in fact, that was signed one day after his election.
With all of the gang bangers who openly ignore the laws in place already and possess many weapons illegally today, is taking guns away from law abiding citizens the correct response? I don't believe so, but that is what the media and the politicians will promote, yet the story of England, Canada and Australia among other nations does not support that outcome.
It is time instead to secure our schools with simple security measures which are known to be effective as well as improve intervention strategies for known or suspected mentally ill kids at risk of this behavior.
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OK to you too Cariad.
:cuddle;
:waving;
Uggh we are having such a wind storm. My door wreath almost broke my window! I think my garbage is down!
Yes, and I wish you would quit sending your bad weather across the Idaho border!!
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MM
I dont know if this is a good answer, but i have one :)
My dad has guns, lots of guns, you could say hes a gun collector... He keeps them locked in a heavy duty safe. He loves to hunt, so most of them are the rifles? i think thats what they are called. but he also has hand guns. One I know he has for security lol the others are heirlooms? passed down from other family members...
Now, you asked why anyone would 'need' a gun like that? I dont really think they do, because you can protect yourself just as easily with a rifle, or hell, even a muskette. People did that for a long time, didnt they? But it is a faster weapon. if your busy loading while someone is trying to hurt you or your family, your screwed. My dad is a good man, and loves his guns, it would be sad to see someone take that away. I personally stand on the side that if a criminal wants a gun, they will find a way, gun control or not... And if the government cant protect us, or refuse to, then we have to be able to protect ourselves. And who knows, might have to protect ourselves from them!
And I do agree with both on the case of the shooter. I think what I said was both right and wrong. We do need those questions answered, but not in the way that totally makes the guy memorable. I guess I said that right...
And we do need more mental health funding. Its really unfortunate, that we have doctors without boarders willing to go overseas to help for free, but none here helping like that. instead, its expensive! Ive been dealing with mental health facilities since i was 11, and I personally dont see that they do much good anyway. Most of the people ive seen arent that great at what they do. (of course I go to the cheap places... i think maybe thats the problem lol) A good one would cost me an arm and a leg, and doubt insurance would cover it.
My brother recently lost his mind, and his insurance only covers like 6 visits a year, something he definitely needs A LOT more of! Hes batshit crazy...
There will always be people like this, killing innocent people. Their reasoning can be anything, and the result wont change. Some people just suck. Some people cant be helped, Some dont want to be helped.
And having gun control or better mental health programs probably wont change that, there are other weapons, other ways...
My father was a member of the NRA. He had a couple of collectible handguns. I can understand how someone would enjoy having such a collection.
While I don't think I could hunt and kill Bambi, I understand that many people enjoy hunting. I do not wish to take away someone else's freedom to do this just becuase I don't like it.
I also understand the pleasure someone could get from shooting at targets, like in the Olympics or at the firing range. I understand that this is a skill.
What I don't understand is why anyone would need or even WANT a weapon like the one used by this shooter, this "Bushmaster" weapon. This is not a weapon what you can conceal/carry, so of what use would it be in "self-defense"?
I understand from the British print media that the shooter's mother was one of these "survivalists", and that's why she had her own private arsenal. She was preparing for the end of civilization as we know it, so that leads me to wonder if mental illness runs in THAT family.
I don't think that any one measure will stop things like this from ever happening again, but if we can save even one more classroom or one more filled cinema complex from tragedies like this, it is worth a try. Just because a measure won't completely solve the problem doesn't mean we should do nothing.
@ Rerun, as for tying abortion with gun control, there are already many, many states that have defunded Planned Parenthood or are aiming to do so in an attempt to halt abortions altogether, so if you really want to go there, we should be doing the same with gun control. Those states that are clamping down on abortion should also be clamping down on guns. There...how about that? But we are seeing the opposite...abortion rights are rapidly dwindling while permission to be armed to the teeth is expanding rapidly. Illinois has been the only state that forbids concealed/carry, but a recent federal decision has now mandated that this is unconstitutional and so the state legislature has 180 days to draft legislation making concealed/carry legal in this state. So, rerun, you are way off base in this regard.
Abraham Lincoln fervently believed that the blood spilled during the Civil War was God's demand for payment for the blood spilled "from the lash" of slavery. I have not been able to escape the thought that the blood of these babies was spilled because we are going down the wrong path and are allowing these evil weapons to dominate our society. We have willingly misinterpreted the Second Amendment, and we are paying the price. With each massacre, God is trying to tell us something, but we refuse to listen. I always knew that something so gruesome would happen that would force us to change our ways. Newtown may be just that.
Dear Moosemom,
I have often wondered if the blood spilt in American streets from gangs and other murders is indeed payment for all of the blood America spills in all of our secret wars and special op actions? Can't in the least begin to answer that question, but having spent 9 years as a military officer and spoken to hundreds of soldiers involved in special ops over the last few decades, it is a question that Lincoln would probably ask today himself.
As far as God, self protection and self defense with weapons is supported by the Bible, so misinterpreting is not the issue, perhaps the 3000 babies we abort daily is more important an issue in God's eyes than the lawful possession of firearms by law abiding people exercising a constitutional right correctly interpreted.
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Peter if you see a garbage can flying it is mine. Auntie Em Auntie Em....
MM, I understand what you are saying. I was throwing it out there and expected to hear about it. I think God is very sad about the spilt blood on this land.... all of it. If as a Nation we could just turn back to Him. But, I don't see that happening.
Evil lurks our streets and towns. It barley hits the news and something else happens.
I have mace, not a gun. They scare me. Oh, and an attack dog.
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Peter if you see a garbage can it is mine.
Oh, I thought I saw your dog Toto a while ago as well.
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Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???
God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????
As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that. Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????
There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.
Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?
KarenInWA
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Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???
God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????
As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that. Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????
There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.
Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?
KarenInWA
Sorry to offend, but why would God hate the innocent death of 20 beautiful children in CT, but NOT hate the innocent death of thousands of his children daily? Sorry, but that is not Westboro Baptist mentality that is simply the reality that life begins at conception. Westboro Baptists are not Baptist nor Christian, they are a cult that thrives on provoking lawsuits to make money.
God is offended by the loss of All innocent life. Is that really a hard concept to understand? And yes, abortion is all about the loss of innocent life. Yet our society dismisses that and acts rightfully horrified by the actions in CT. That is unfortunately hypocrisy at its worst.
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This whole situation saddens me beyond words.
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Hemodoc
Where is the evidence of increased violence in Australia since the banning of hand guns? Things seem to be plodding along as usual here.
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Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???
God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????
As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that. Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????
There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.
Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?
KarenInWA
Sorry to offend, but why would God hate the innocent death of 20 beautiful children in CT, but NOT hate the innocent death of thousands of his children daily? Sorry, but that is not Westboro Baptist mentality that is simply the reality that life begins at conception. Westboro Baptists are not Baptist nor Christian, they are a cult that thrives on provoking lawsuits to make money.
God is offended by the loss of All innocent life. Is that really a hard concept to understand? And yes, abortion is all about the loss of innocent life. Yet our society dismisses that and acts rightfully horrified by the actions in CT. That is unfortunately hypocrisy at its worst.
Yes, I understand that the westboro "baptist" "church" is not like a traditional church, which is why I do not capitalize it and put quotes around those words. What reeks of wbc to me in regards to bringing abortion up in relation to this tragedy is this - the wbc is bringing up gay marriage as the reason for this tragedy. There are some out there who are doing the same with abortion. Abortion has NOTHING to do with this tragedy, it is an apples and oranges comparison. I am sorry, but I feel that there is a huge difference between a fetus that has barely developed vs a child that has been born, loved, raised, has personality and a future. I know that somewhere earlier on this thread, someone was mourning the death of 50 million babies via abortion. We already have a population problem. As cold as that sounds, where would we put these millions of additional people? However, once you're born, you're here, and we should do everything in our collective power to take care of our youth. "It takes a village" and all of that. That is a subject for another thread, so I won't go further on that here. Just like abortion is a subject for another thread, and should not be brought up here. Guns, however, is a subject to be brought up in this thread, since it was guns - and not abortion - that killed these innocent kids. In their classroom, of all places. The whole thing is just sick, sad and wrong.
KarenInWA
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Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???
God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????
As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that. Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????
There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.
Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?
KarenInWA
Sorry to offend, but why would God hate the innocent death of 20 beautiful children in CT, but NOT hate the innocent death of thousands of his children daily? Sorry, but that is not Westboro Baptist mentality that is simply the reality that life begins at conception. Westboro Baptists are not Baptist nor Christian, they are a cult that thrives on provoking lawsuits to make money.
God is offended by the loss of All innocent life. Is that really a hard concept to understand? And yes, abortion is all about the loss of innocent life. Yet our society dismisses that and acts rightfully horrified by the actions in CT. That is unfortunately hypocrisy at its worst.
Here is the problem: YOU ARE NOT SORRY TO OFFEND. To turn this thread into a discussion on abortion is absolutely and totally disgusting. You should be ashamed.
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Wow, so we're really comparing aborting pregnancies to shooting innocent kids in a classroom. Seriously???
God is angry at us for abortion, so this is the wake-up call to get us to think serioiusly about it? A madman with a gun??? How does one equate to the other??????
As a woman who has had CKD and now ESRD being treated w/a transplant, who would have to or have had to abort if I ever got pregnant, I take offense to that. Not only that, it reeks WAAAAAY to much of the mentality of the westboro "baptist" "church". Why would ANYone want to be like them????????
There is no need to drag abortion into this God-awful tragedy. It has absolutely nothing to do about it.
Now, can we get back on track to what this thread is really about?? The tragedy in Newton CT and the victims and families affected by it?
KarenInWA
Sorry to offend, but why would God hate the innocent death of 20 beautiful children in CT, but NOT hate the innocent death of thousands of his children daily? Sorry, but that is not Westboro Baptist mentality that is simply the reality that life begins at conception. Westboro Baptists are not Baptist nor Christian, they are a cult that thrives on provoking lawsuits to make money.
God is offended by the loss of All innocent life. Is that really a hard concept to understand? And yes, abortion is all about the loss of innocent life. Yet our society dismisses that and acts rightfully horrified by the actions in CT. That is unfortunately hypocrisy at its worst.
Here is the problem: YOU ARE NOT SORRY TO OFFEND. To turn this thread into a discussion on abortion is absolutely and totally disgusting. You should be ashamed.
Hey YL, great to hear from you again as always. By the way, I DID Not throw out the first reference to God or abortion. But no sense arguing with you, but yes, God is offended by the loss of ALL innocent life especially abortion. But hey, since you don't believe in God, don't worry about it, God isn't real remember, isn't that your position?
In any case why not yell at Moosemom who brought up the issue, but no it is more fun to cast aspersions at me instead.
Have a great day YL, nothing changes does it.
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Hey YL, great to hear from you again as always. By the way, I DID Not throw out the first reference to God or abortion. But no sense arguing with you, but yes, God is offended by the loss of ALL innocent life especially abortion. But hey, since you don't believe in God, don't worry about it, God isn't real remember, isn't that your position?
In any case why not yell at Moosemom who brought up the issue, but no it is more fun to cast aspersions at me instead.
Have a great day YL, nothing changes does it.
Actually, if you look back further, it was not MooseMom who first brought it up. She was merely responding to the individual who DID bring it up first. I don't like to call out people like that. Just go back and do your own research. In any event, abortion has nothing to do with this tragedy. Much like gay marriage and the wbc have nothing to do with it, either.
KarenInWA
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I am going to do myself a kindness tonight and not read through this thread to discover how we got onto the topic of abortion. Happy holiday season to me!
Simon, I agree with you that experience does not equal expertise. I have argued this myself in the past. However, arming a school is not just a security issue - it is a deeply political decision and will have a psychological impact on all involved with that institution. When you are talking about the psychology of children and how this will impact the individual, then parents are going to overwhelmingly be the experts in that area when it comes to their own kids. Not to mention that this would fundamentally change the job description of teachers and/or headmasters. I believe that NO teacher that I have encountered through my own children would be willing to work in the sort of environment that would develop from bringing guns into a school. My kids went to their much-loved afterschool program (that has now become a model program for the nation) after that law was passed that allowed guns everywhere and anywhere unless the property owners explicitly prohibited them. Since this afterschool program is part of a university campus, signs went up overnight - on all the university owned buildings including the children's centre - saying that guns were not allowed on the premises. Here we had an announcement of a gun-free zone, and yet (thankfully, thankfully, thankfully) no incidents of any shootings. I believe we need to get to the root of this problem (the causes of the causes of the causes as they say in public health) rather than just continually escalate the weaponry.
Everywhere my kids have ever gone to school there has been a playground. In LA, the gates were a mile high (slight exaggeration) and nearly impossible to see through, but every other place you could just stand on the street corner and start shooting the kids. The LA school had weekly field trips using city buses or just walking through town - same problem. The determined individual can always find a way, but do we want to turn our schools into a constant reminder of violence and fear, or do we want to focus our energies on preventing people from going round the bend in the first place.
Here is part of a quote passed along by a friend in Wisconsin, where we have seen teachers devalued and insulted for years now: We live in a society where the response is "Arm teachers!" from the same people who called teachers "thugs" a year ago. Yes, teachers are overworked, underpaid, and justifiably angry at how they have been demonized and held up as a symbol of society's ills. And now, after the abuse and indignities that they've endured, we want to hand them guns. What could go wrong?
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Hemodoc
Where is the evidence of increased violence in Australia since the banning of hand guns? Things seem to be plodding along as usual here.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html)
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I started it because I could not help but think of the babies killed at that school and Obama weeping over them but he supports partial birth abortion. Kind of a hypocrite but maybe he will start thinking about it himself and see the irony. The only reason I brought it up was because it made me think. It is awful too.
I guess if you don't see the connection you never will.
Here was my quote:
When Obama talks about.... Do we do enough to protect our children in this country, Do we show them our love and do they know they are safe here able to grow up and live their dreams ..... I can't help but think of the 20+ abortions that happened that morning or the 52 million babies who this country has allowed to be killed. I just can't help but think of them. He weeps over little kids being murdered but allows partial birth abortions? How can we make sense of that senseless act. Should we spend more money on mental health for those scared young girls who just want out? Maybe provide a safe place for them to have their babies and not kill them and have to live with that the rese of their lives? I'm just thinking outloud here. [quote/]
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STOP!
There are many bad things that are happening in this world right now.
This is about:
(CNN) -- When a gunman opened fire inside a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school Friday, he cut short 26 lives. Six women who worked at Sandy Hook Elementary were killed, in addition to 20 students -- twelve girls and eight boys -- according to state police.
Here are details about their lives:
Charlotte Bacon, 6
Charlotte was sweet, outgoing and full of energy, her grandmother told CNN affiliate WCCO in Minnesota.
"This is tough. This is surreal. You can't believe this could happen," Irene Hagen told the network. "The whole family is just devastated and we're all trying to come to terms with it."
She said her granddaughter loved school and dresses. Her hair was a mass of beautiful red curls.
"It's horrible. It's really horrible," Hagen told WCCO. "It's hard to believe that someone would kill children, innocent children."
Rachel D'Avino, 29
She likely didn't know it when she died, but her best friend was about to propose.
He had recently asked Rachel's parents for permission, and he was planning to ask for her hand in marriage on Christmas Eve.
That and other details about Rachel's life were described in an obituary posted on the website of Munson-Lovetere Funeral Homes of Connecticut.
"Her presence and tremendous smile brightened any room she entered," it read.
Born in Waterbury, Rachel received her undergraduate degree from the University of Hartford and her Masters from Post University. She was working toward her Doctorate at the University of St. Joseph of Hartford.
Rachel loved karate, cooking, animals, photography and her two younger siblings.
"Her passion, however, was her occupation as a behavioral therapist working with children within the autism spectrum," the obituary read.
In lieu of flowers, it asked that donations be made to Autism Speaks, an advocay organization.
Olivia Engel, 6
Her favorite stuffed animal was a lamb; pink and purple were her favorite colors.
Olivia's family posted a statement on Facebook with those and other details about their beloved daughter.
"She was insightful for her age and had a great sense of humor. She laughed a lot and always lit up a room including the people around her. She was very creative and was always drawing and designing things," her family said.
Olivia took art and dance lessons, played tennis, soccer and swam. She was involved in Girl Scouts and musical theater. She loved school and did well in math and reading.
Her family described her as a "grateful child ... never greedy." Each night, Olivia led grace at the dinner table.
Dylan Hockley, 6
"To know him was to love him," Dylan's grandmother told the Boston Herald about her grandson.
Dylan loved video games, jumping on a trampoline, watching movies and munching garlic bread, she said. He had dimples, blue eyes and "the most mischievous little grin," Theresa Moretti told the newspaper.
She said her daughter and son-in-law moved to Connecticut from England and chose to live where they did because of the schools. Dylan had an older brother.
"He was an angel," Moretti told the Herald. "And I think that's now why he's in heaven."
Dawn Lafferty Hochsprung, 47
Hochsprung, who became Sandy Hook Elementary School's principal two years ago, was "really nice and very fun, but she was also very much a tough lady in the right sort of sense," friend Tom Prunty said. And the students loved her. "Even little kids know when someone cares about them, and that was her," Prunty said.
"I never saw her without a smile," said Aimee Seaver, mother of a first-grader.
Hochsprung lived in Woodbury, Connecticut, with her husband, two daughters and three stepdaughters.
The longtime career educator majored in special education for her bachelor's and master's degrees in the 1990s and had just entered the Ph.D. program at Esteves School of Education at the Sage Colleges in New York last summer. Hochsprung led a school district's strategic planning panel and was the recipient of a national school grant.
Her accomplishments included overseeing the installation of a new security system requiring every visitor to ring the front entrance's doorbell after the school doors locked at 9:30 a.m.
"My mom, Dawn Hochsprung, was taken tragically from me. But she went down in a blaze of glory that truly represents who she was," her daughter, Cristina Hassinger, tweeted.
Jesse Lewis, 6
Jesse loved math, riding horses and playing at his mom's farm, his father told the New York Post.
"He was just a happy boy," said Neil Heslin. "Everybody knew Jesse."
He told the newspaper his son was to make gingerbread houses at school Friday. Heslin was planning to help.
Instead, the last time he saw his son was when he dropped him off at school at 9 a.m.
"He was going to go places in life," Heslin told the Post.
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
"1, 2, 3, ready and go," Ana counts down in a homemade video provided to CNN affiliate WTIC.
The girl in pigtails stands in front of a piano as her brother plays. Her voice is clear, bigger than her size. Ana smiles and waves.
Her father, Jimmy Greene, is a jazz musician. His representative released a statement on Ana's death, describing the little girl as "beautiful and vibrant."
"The family has requested privacy at this time of heartbreaking loss," it read. They "have asked us to relay their sincere gratitude for the outpouring of support and sympathy locally, nationally and internationally."
Grace McDonnell, 7
The ultimate "girly girl." Grace loved wearing pink and playing dress-up with jewelry, her grandmother told the Boston Herald.
As Mary Ann McDonnell spoke, she was surrounded by Christmas presents meant for Grace, Gracie, as she was sometimes called.
The little girl loved art, gymnastics, soccer and her small spaniel, Puddin', her grandmother said.
"She was a wonderful little girl. She was always smiling," McDonnell told the newspaper. "I think everybody should know about these beautiful children whose lives were cut short."
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
A hero. That's how a first responder reportedly described Murphy to her father.
He told Newsday that authorities told him her body was found in a classroom, covering young children killed in the shooting in an apparent attempt to shield them.
"She died doing what she loved. She was serving children and serving God," Murphy's mother, Alice McGowan, told the newspaper.
A married mother of four, Murphy was artistic and hardworking, her parents said.
"She was a happy soul," her mother told Newsday. "She was a very good daughter, a good mother, a good wife."
Emilie Parker, 6
She could "light up a room," Emilie's father said about his oldest daughter.
Robbie Parker described her as "bright, creative and very loving." Emilie was always willing to try new things, he said, except food. Her laugh was infectious.
"My daughter Emilie would be one of the first ones to be standing up and giving her love and support to all of those victims, because that is the type of person she is," said Parker.
He said she was "an exceptional artist and she always carried around her markers and pencils so she never missed an opportunity to draw a picture or make a card for someone."
"This world is a better place because she has been in it," Parker said.
Emilie's aunt described her niece as the "sweetest little girl I've ever known."
The family is devastated that "someone so beautiful and perfect is no longer going to be in our lives and for no reason," said Jill Cottle Garrett.
Emilie's father, who works as a physician's assistant in the newborn unit at the Danbury hospital, recalled his last conversation with his daughter was in Portuguese, a language he was teaching her.
"She said that she loved me, and I gave her a kiss and I was out the door," he said.
Noah Pozner, 6
"He had a huge heart and he was so much fun, a little bit rambunctious, lots of spirit," Noah's aunt told CNN. "He was really the light of the room."
Victoria Haller said her nephew loved playing with his cousins and siblings, especially his twin sister.
"He was a gorgeous, gorgeous boy and he could really get what he wanted just by batting those long eyelashes and looking at you with those big blue eyes. You really couldn't say no to him," she said.
His siblings don't know yet the exact way in which Noah passed away, Haller said.
"How do you tell them that's how their brother died?" she asked. "It's the unthinkable really."
Jessica Rekos, 6
Jessica loved everything about horses -- horse movies, horse books, drawing horses and writing stories about them.
She asked Santa this year for new cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat. Her family had promised she could get her own horse when she turned 10.
"She was a creative, beautiful, little girl," her family said in a statement, describing Jessica as their "rock."
"She had an answer for everything, she didn't miss a trick, and she outsmarted us every time. We called her our little CEO for the way she carefully thought out and planned everything," they said. "We can not imagine our life without her."
Jessica also loved orca whales and playing with her two little brothers.
"We are mourning her loss, sharing our beautiful memories we have of her, and trying to help her brother Travis understand why he can't play with his best friend," her family said.
Lauren Rousseau, 30
Rousseau, a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, "wanted to be a teacher from before she even went to kindergarten," her mother said in a written statement Saturday. "We will miss her terribly and will take comfort knowing that she had achieved that dream," Teresa Rousseau said.
She grew up in Danbury, Connecticut, and earned a bachelor's degree from the University of Connecticut and a master's degree in elementary education from the University of Bridgeport.
Rousseau "worked as a substitute teacher in Danbury, New Milford and Newtown before she was hired in November as a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown," her mother said.
Mary Sherlach, 56
Sherlach, Sandy Hook Elementary's school psychologist, was with Hochsprung when they heard a "pop, pop, pop" sound around 9:30 a.m., a parent with both women at the time told CNN. Sherlach was shot to death after heading into the hall to find out what was happening.
"I ... am always ready to assist in problem-solving, intervention and prevention," Sherlach wrote on her website.
Sherlach earned her undergraduate degree in psychology at SUNY Cortland and a master's degree at Southern Connecticut State University. She worked as a rehabilitation assistant at a group home for disabled adults and as a community mental health placement specialist before becoming a school psychologist.
She worked in three Connecticut school systems before moving to Sandy Hook Elementary in 1994. During her time in Newtown, Sherlach kept busy as a member of numerous groups such as the district conflict resolution committee, safe school climate committee, crisis intervention team and student instructional team.
Sherlach and her husband for more than three decades lived in Trumbull, Connecticut, and, together, they were "proud parents" of two daughters in their late 20s. Her website listed her interests as gardening, reading and going to the theater.
Victoria Soto, 27
Soto, a first-grade teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, moved her students away from the classroom door when she heard gunfire, which students initially "thought were hammers falling," according to the father of one of her students.
"That's when the gunman burst in, did not say a word, no facial expressions, and proceeded to shoot their teacher," said Robert Licata, whose 6-year-old son, Aiden, escaped by running past the shooter.
Soto's mother said her daughter was selfless.
"She would not hesitate to think to save anyone else before herself and especially children. She loved them more than life, and she would definitely put herself in front of them any day," Donna Soto told CNN's Piers Morgan.
Soto wanted to be a teacher since she was 3 and talked about her students with "such fondness and caring," her mother said.
Soto's cousin, James Wiltsie, said Soto "instinctively went into action when a monster came into her classroom and tried to protect the kids that she loved so much."
"We just want the public to know that Vicki was a hero," he said.
Soto had a dog she loved. The black lab Roxie spent Saturday wandering around Soto's apartment, apparently looking for her, relatives said.
Other victims
Daniel Barden, 7; Josephine Gay, 7; Madeleine Hsu, 6; Catherine Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; James Mattioli, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison Wyatt, 6.
To make this thread about your politics or religious views is wrong. If you can't see that then I guess you never will.
May they rest in peace.
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Then stop talking about Gun Control. It has nothing to do with this. Let's focus on the lost little first graders.
I volunteer for first grade once a week. I'm glad I don't have to go back for a couple of weeks. It is scary.
:bow;
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STOP!
There are many bad things that are happening in this world right now.
This is about:
(CNN) -- When a gunman opened fire inside a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school Friday, he cut short 26 lives. Six women who worked at Sandy Hook Elementary were killed, in addition to 20 students -- twelve girls and eight boys -- according to state police.
Here are details about their lives:
Charlotte Bacon, 6
Charlotte was sweet, outgoing and full of energy, her grandmother told CNN affiliate WCCO in Minnesota.
"This is tough. This is surreal. You can't believe this could happen," Irene Hagen told the network. "The whole family is just devastated and we're all trying to come to terms with it."
She said her granddaughter loved school and dresses. Her hair was a mass of beautiful red curls.
"It's horrible. It's really horrible," Hagen told WCCO. "It's hard to believe that someone would kill children, innocent children."
Rachel D'Avino, 29
She likely didn't know it when she died, but her best friend was about to propose.
He had recently asked Rachel's parents for permission, and he was planning to ask for her hand in marriage on Christmas Eve.
That and other details about Rachel's life were described in an obituary posted on the website of Munson-Lovetere Funeral Homes of Connecticut.
"Her presence and tremendous smile brightened any room she entered," it read.
Born in Waterbury, Rachel received her undergraduate degree from the University of Hartford and her Masters from Post University. She was working toward her Doctorate at the University of St. Joseph of Hartford.
Rachel loved karate, cooking, animals, photography and her two younger siblings.
"Her passion, however, was her occupation as a behavioral therapist working with children within the autism spectrum," the obituary read.
In lieu of flowers, it asked that donations be made to Autism Speaks, an advocay organization.
Olivia Engel, 6
Her favorite stuffed animal was a lamb; pink and purple were her favorite colors.
Olivia's family posted a statement on Facebook with those and other details about their beloved daughter.
"She was insightful for her age and had a great sense of humor. She laughed a lot and always lit up a room including the people around her. She was very creative and was always drawing and designing things," her family said.
Olivia took art and dance lessons, played tennis, soccer and swam. She was involved in Girl Scouts and musical theater. She loved school and did well in math and reading.
Her family described her as a "grateful child ... never greedy." Each night, Olivia led grace at the dinner table.
Dylan Hockley, 6
"To know him was to love him," Dylan's grandmother told the Boston Herald about her grandson.
Dylan loved video games, jumping on a trampoline, watching movies and munching garlic bread, she said. He had dimples, blue eyes and "the most mischievous little grin," Theresa Moretti told the newspaper.
She said her daughter and son-in-law moved to Connecticut from England and chose to live where they did because of the schools. Dylan had an older brother.
"He was an angel," Moretti told the Herald. "And I think that's now why he's in heaven."
Dawn Lafferty Hochsprung, 47
Hochsprung, who became Sandy Hook Elementary School's principal two years ago, was "really nice and very fun, but she was also very much a tough lady in the right sort of sense," friend Tom Prunty said. And the students loved her. "Even little kids know when someone cares about them, and that was her," Prunty said.
"I never saw her without a smile," said Aimee Seaver, mother of a first-grader.
Hochsprung lived in Woodbury, Connecticut, with her husband, two daughters and three stepdaughters.
The longtime career educator majored in special education for her bachelor's and master's degrees in the 1990s and had just entered the Ph.D. program at Esteves School of Education at the Sage Colleges in New York last summer. Hochsprung led a school district's strategic planning panel and was the recipient of a national school grant.
Her accomplishments included overseeing the installation of a new security system requiring every visitor to ring the front entrance's doorbell after the school doors locked at 9:30 a.m.
"My mom, Dawn Hochsprung, was taken tragically from me. But she went down in a blaze of glory that truly represents who she was," her daughter, Cristina Hassinger, tweeted.
Jesse Lewis, 6
Jesse loved math, riding horses and playing at his mom's farm, his father told the New York Post.
"He was just a happy boy," said Neil Heslin. "Everybody knew Jesse."
He told the newspaper his son was to make gingerbread houses at school Friday. Heslin was planning to help.
Instead, the last time he saw his son was when he dropped him off at school at 9 a.m.
"He was going to go places in life," Heslin told the Post.
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
"1, 2, 3, ready and go," Ana counts down in a homemade video provided to CNN affiliate WTIC.
The girl in pigtails stands in front of a piano as her brother plays. Her voice is clear, bigger than her size. Ana smiles and waves.
Her father, Jimmy Greene, is a jazz musician. His representative released a statement on Ana's death, describing the little girl as "beautiful and vibrant."
"The family has requested privacy at this time of heartbreaking loss," it read. They "have asked us to relay their sincere gratitude for the outpouring of support and sympathy locally, nationally and internationally."
Grace McDonnell, 7
The ultimate "girly girl." Grace loved wearing pink and playing dress-up with jewelry, her grandmother told the Boston Herald.
As Mary Ann McDonnell spoke, she was surrounded by Christmas presents meant for Grace, Gracie, as she was sometimes called.
The little girl loved art, gymnastics, soccer and her small spaniel, Puddin', her grandmother said.
"She was a wonderful little girl. She was always smiling," McDonnell told the newspaper. "I think everybody should know about these beautiful children whose lives were cut short."
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
A hero. That's how a first responder reportedly described Murphy to her father.
He told Newsday that authorities told him her body was found in a classroom, covering young children killed in the shooting in an apparent attempt to shield them.
"She died doing what she loved. She was serving children and serving God," Murphy's mother, Alice McGowan, told the newspaper.
A married mother of four, Murphy was artistic and hardworking, her parents said.
"She was a happy soul," her mother told Newsday. "She was a very good daughter, a good mother, a good wife."
Emilie Parker, 6
She could "light up a room," Emilie's father said about his oldest daughter.
Robbie Parker described her as "bright, creative and very loving." Emilie was always willing to try new things, he said, except food. Her laugh was infectious.
"My daughter Emilie would be one of the first ones to be standing up and giving her love and support to all of those victims, because that is the type of person she is," said Parker.
He said she was "an exceptional artist and she always carried around her markers and pencils so she never missed an opportunity to draw a picture or make a card for someone."
"This world is a better place because she has been in it," Parker said.
Emilie's aunt described her niece as the "sweetest little girl I've ever known."
The family is devastated that "someone so beautiful and perfect is no longer going to be in our lives and for no reason," said Jill Cottle Garrett.
Emilie's father, who works as a physician's assistant in the newborn unit at the Danbury hospital, recalled his last conversation with his daughter was in Portuguese, a language he was teaching her.
"She said that she loved me, and I gave her a kiss and I was out the door," he said.
Noah Pozner, 6
"He had a huge heart and he was so much fun, a little bit rambunctious, lots of spirit," Noah's aunt told CNN. "He was really the light of the room."
Victoria Haller said her nephew loved playing with his cousins and siblings, especially his twin sister.
"He was a gorgeous, gorgeous boy and he could really get what he wanted just by batting those long eyelashes and looking at you with those big blue eyes. You really couldn't say no to him," she said.
His siblings don't know yet the exact way in which Noah passed away, Haller said.
"How do you tell them that's how their brother died?" she asked. "It's the unthinkable really."
Jessica Rekos, 6
Jessica loved everything about horses -- horse movies, horse books, drawing horses and writing stories about them.
She asked Santa this year for new cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat. Her family had promised she could get her own horse when she turned 10.
"She was a creative, beautiful, little girl," her family said in a statement, describing Jessica as their "rock."
"She had an answer for everything, she didn't miss a trick, and she outsmarted us every time. We called her our little CEO for the way she carefully thought out and planned everything," they said. "We can not imagine our life without her."
Jessica also loved orca whales and playing with her two little brothers.
"We are mourning her loss, sharing our beautiful memories we have of her, and trying to help her brother Travis understand why he can't play with his best friend," her family said.
Lauren Rousseau, 30
Rousseau, a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, "wanted to be a teacher from before she even went to kindergarten," her mother said in a written statement Saturday. "We will miss her terribly and will take comfort knowing that she had achieved that dream," Teresa Rousseau said.
She grew up in Danbury, Connecticut, and earned a bachelor's degree from the University of Connecticut and a master's degree in elementary education from the University of Bridgeport.
Rousseau "worked as a substitute teacher in Danbury, New Milford and Newtown before she was hired in November as a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown," her mother said.
Mary Sherlach, 56
Sherlach, Sandy Hook Elementary's school psychologist, was with Hochsprung when they heard a "pop, pop, pop" sound around 9:30 a.m., a parent with both women at the time told CNN. Sherlach was shot to death after heading into the hall to find out what was happening.
"I ... am always ready to assist in problem-solving, intervention and prevention," Sherlach wrote on her website.
Sherlach earned her undergraduate degree in psychology at SUNY Cortland and a master's degree at Southern Connecticut State University. She worked as a rehabilitation assistant at a group home for disabled adults and as a community mental health placement specialist before becoming a school psychologist.
She worked in three Connecticut school systems before moving to Sandy Hook Elementary in 1994. During her time in Newtown, Sherlach kept busy as a member of numerous groups such as the district conflict resolution committee, safe school climate committee, crisis intervention team and student instructional team.
Sherlach and her husband for more than three decades lived in Trumbull, Connecticut, and, together, they were "proud parents" of two daughters in their late 20s. Her website listed her interests as gardening, reading and going to the theater.
Victoria Soto, 27
Soto, a first-grade teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, moved her students away from the classroom door when she heard gunfire, which students initially "thought were hammers falling," according to the father of one of her students.
"That's when the gunman burst in, did not say a word, no facial expressions, and proceeded to shoot their teacher," said Robert Licata, whose 6-year-old son, Aiden, escaped by running past the shooter.
Soto's mother said her daughter was selfless.
"She would not hesitate to think to save anyone else before herself and especially children. She loved them more than life, and she would definitely put herself in front of them any day," Donna Soto told CNN's Piers Morgan.
Soto wanted to be a teacher since she was 3 and talked about her students with "such fondness and caring," her mother said.
Soto's cousin, James Wiltsie, said Soto "instinctively went into action when a monster came into her classroom and tried to protect the kids that she loved so much."
"We just want the public to know that Vicki was a hero," he said.
Soto had a dog she loved. The black lab Roxie spent Saturday wandering around Soto's apartment, apparently looking for her, relatives said.
Other victims
Daniel Barden, 7; Josephine Gay, 7; Madeleine Hsu, 6; Catherine Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; James Mattioli, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison Wyatt, 6.
To make this thread about your politics or religious views is wrong. If you can't see that then I guess you never will.
May they rest in peace.
Chill out YL, that is bad for your health. Everyone is angered and shocked by these tragic events that sadly could have been prevented. If Rerun and Moosemom and even me want to talk openly about these issues, that is the IHD way YL in the OFF TOPIC, DISCUSS ANYTHING YOU
WANT SECTION. We are all sickened and angered by the loss of innocent life which some of us likewise feel about abortion. Sorry, but if you can't handle discussions on these issues, perhaps you need to take a time out.
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He wrote the post, I think he has every right to say that!
If you want to discuss those things, make your own damn post for that purpose.
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Then stop talking about Gun Control. It has nothing to do with this. Let's focus on the lost little first graders.
I volunteer for first grade once a week. I'm glad I don't have to go back for a couple of weeks. It is scary.
:bow;
Well said as always Rerun. God bless.
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He wrote the post, I think he has every right to say that!
If you want to discuss those things, make your own damn post for that purpose.
I spend hours combining threads about the same thing. We can all post our opinions without starting a new thread each time. Just because you don't agree you don't have to start a new thread.
Epoman use to tell people to go start their own site if they didn't like the way he did it. He had that right. It was his. We share his site.
Emotions are high on this subject and maybe my brain strayed to killing the innocent. In my mind that isn't too far off the subject but .... I won't mention it again. Just the big pink elephant in the room. Okay?
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If I get another complaint about this thread I will lock it.
I honestly cannot go through reading it all.
I have avoided the news because it's killing me to hear any more about those little angels that were murdered by a nut job.
If you all cannot find a way to discuss things without dragging the admins into it, you'll lose the option.
There are to be NO ad hominem attacks:
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
Got it? Good.
okarol/admin
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I feel bad for all, but my heart tugs for the little guy Noah who had a twin. Also, I'd like to know if any parent lost their only child. That too would just crush their whole lives.
The first parent to speak said right off that he had set up a Facebook Fund page. I thought that was a little odd to raise money the first day. But, maybe they couldn't even afford a funeral or something. I don't do Facebook so I can't go see. I'm sure there will be other places to donate.
I'm sorry if I hurt someone further. I just think too much. ???
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There are a lot of interesting comments in this thread that I'd like to respond to, so pardon me if this post gets a bit lengthy (but y'all should be used to that by now! My reputation for being wordy will remain untarnished.)
@SimonDog, thank you for the suggestion to Google "Three Arms Competition". I did. My husband has a work colleague who is an ex-police officer and is an avid shooting competitor, and I've asked said husband to ask said colleague what sort of weapons he uses in competitions and how he keeps those weapons safe. He has a teenaged boy and a young daughter at home. I also want to ask if he sees using these weapons for self-defense.
Like I said, I can understand the fun one can have at such competitions, but must these competitions involve weapons used by the military? Can gun enthusiasts not find enjoyment using less lethal, less automatic weapons? Is your entertainment a more worthy cause than the effort to make our society less lethal?
Re violent video games, it strikes me that there are vulnerable people for whom sitting alone for hours on end playing these sorts of games is just a recipe for disaster. Many people play these sorts of games, and many people watch violent movies, but not all of them shoot children. Just as alcohol or recreational drugs are well tolerated by many, there are those for whom these substances lead to addiction, ruining their lives and the lives of their families in the process.
The fundamental question is whether or not we ban or inhibit access to violent instruments in our society, whether they be movies, video games or shooting competitions, because they can be accessed by people who become warped by them.
I saw an interview with a forensic psychologist yesterday, and he said something very interesting. He said that one common thread he has seen linking these shooters is that they have thrived on a culture of destruction. Violence destroys. He suggested that we need to recognize this trait in these vulnerable individuals and help them to create, not destroy. I thought that was an interesting opinion.
Re school security, Sandy Hook apparently had just upgraded its security protocols; no one could enter the building after 9:30 AM without being buzzed in and identified. But this shooter just shot through and destroyed a window, which shows that if someone wants to kill, chances are they will find a way to do so.
I personally think it is unwise and ineffective to arm school principals or teachers. Perhaps they do not want to handle firearms, and forcing them to do so would be a restriction of their freedom. Forcing them to undergo the required training is unfair and an infringment upon their personal liberty and maybe even their religious freedom if they feel that guns are immoral. If you want an armed presence at each school, then school districts should work with their respective community's police department and arrange to have a trained professional patrolling the outside of each school AND daycare facility. Now, this will be very expensive, but I have no doubt that each of us would be willing to pay more in school/property taxes to defray the costs, right? Right?
I fail to understand why anyone here would feel the need to go and tattle to the admins for something they read here. You'd think that after the horrific health problems we have to cope with, we'd have cultivated a little more toughness.
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Then stop talking about Gun Control. It has nothing to do with this. Let's focus on the lost little first graders.
Talking about gun control has everything to do with this. Talking about how we deal with the mentally ill has everything to do with this. Talking about these issues is the result of focussing on the lost little first graders. We need to look at our society's thrill with violence and ask ourselves why we get so much entertainment from violent TV shows and such.
I saw an interview last night with a different forensic psychiatric than the one I mentioned in my previous post, and she was asked why these shooters were always male. She said that unfortunately, girls can be the perpetrators of violence, too, but that they tend to turn inward. They engage in self-harming activites whereas boys tend to throw their rage out at others. In talking about young men and violent images, she said that many of these shooters see themselves and are seen by others to be less than ideally masculine. So these violent characters become images of what they want to be. Who wants to be a nerdy boy when you can order body armor online, grab your mother's weapons and go out and shoot people just like the manly men they see doing the same on TV?
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Some People are being kind of unreasonable right now. Yes, it was tragic, terrible, and I still cant believe it happened. I wish it hadnt happened, and I too was scared and saddened, and worried... but then reason set in, and I was brought to the conclusion that we need to continue to live our lives. Not only for our own sake, but because We CAN. There are people who died from these tragedies, and their families, friends, and communities, who lost a piece of themselves because of these tragedies. Yes, please, pray for them or whatever you believe. Yes, mourn for them. Worry that it could happen, because it could, BUT hope that it wont. And stop fighting and arguing about things we cannot change. Why do that? Love one another and be happy that we will live another day, and our families are whole, because not all have that luxury right now.
Maybe merely mourning is not enough. And why get stuck into that trap of falling into inaction because these are things that "cannot change"? How many times in our history have people defied the odds and have indeed changed things that everyone else said could not be changed? Are we not a community here at IHD who are working hard to change the status quo that is dialysis as we know it? How many people said that slavery was here to stay or that women could never get the vote? We are not a nation that has ever sat back and done nothing because we truly thought that things would never change. Change is the essence of mankind. And change is happening at a faster and faster rate.
I can't help but remember that it wasn't all that long ago that no one really thought twice about drinking and driving. Just about everyone smoked. No one thought those things would ever change, but they did, and now smoking and drunk driving are socially unacceptable, and texting while driving is swiftly becoming unacceptable as well. Our fascination with violence coupled with a general sweeping under the rug of mental illness CAN change.
Yes, we should continue to live our lives, but we should also strive to make changes so that our lives, and the lives of our fellow Americans, will get better and safer.
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Dear Moosemom, that is exactly the point and in retrospect, warning signs in the Aurora shooter and this one as well as the Arizona shooter appear to have been over looked and ignored. There are unwanted effects of gun bans such as increased violence evident in England and Australia since their handgun bans. Germany took stringent action against guns after their 2002 school massacre which did not prevent their horrific 2009 school massacre nor did stringent gun laws prevent the horrific Norway massacre as well.
I was living in the UK at the time of Dunblane, and there was universal approval of a handgun ban after that horrible event.
It is probably true that there has been an increase in violence in general in the UK since Dunblane, but there is no evidence that this increase is firearm related.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/17/world/europe/dunblane-lessons/index.html
True, strict gun control laws didn't prevent Germany's massacre of 2009 or the one in Norway, but my God, those are just TWO incidents in two separate countries over a period of YEARS whereas here in the US, how many of these horrible events have happened just in the past 12 months? There really is no comparison, Hemodoc, and thanks so much for so clearly illustrating just how warped our gun culture really is.
What is it about our culture that makes us so enamoured of guns and so vulnerable to this sort of mass shooting? Perhaps it is true that guns don't kill people, rather, it's people that kill people, and if that is so, what is wrong with our people? And before anyone starts chiming in with the excuse that America has moved away from God, please keep in mind that both England and Germany are far more secular than the US. Yet we are the ones who are constantly bombarded with ever increasing stories about mass murder at Sikh temples, cinemas, high schools, elementary schools, college campuses and even military bases. Really, what is wrong with us?
Since it is evident that gun laws alone do not prevent these mass murders, note that CT already has an assault weapons ban since 1994 in effect today, is it not prudent for security evaluations of all American schools implementing security measures effective in preventing or delaying mass shootings? The police response was excellent, but came minutes too late. Security measures that prevent access to class rooms themselves with simple measures to secure the room itself as a safe zone are surprising affordable and easy to to engage. The CT assault weapon ban is one more failure in a long list of gun control failures.
I truly don't know...is not the Bushmaster this kid used an "assault weapon"? For what purpose is a Bushmaster used by an ordinary civilian? I would have thought that one could use any sort of gun to assault anyone, so I'm not sure what is meant by "assault weapon". SHES had just begun implementing new security protocols, but this kid just shot out a window like I explained in a previous post. I'm not entirely sure which "simple measures" you are proposing. Could you be more specific?
We openly took our hunting rifles and shotguns to school in the 70's when mass shootings were unheard of. Switzerland has the highest level of gun ownership in the world yet they have a low murder rate and low levels of crime in general.
It is no longer the 70's, and Switzerland is not the US. Like I've said, I agree that guns by themselves is not the root cause of our violent society, but guns added into the mix just magnifies the problem. There is something wrong with our culture.
I fear greatly over reaction to such events leading to gun confiscation which is a long standing objective of this president that we as gun owners knew would rear it's ugly head after his reelection. As always, Obama never wastes a crises to implement his known objectives.
The overreaction comes from those who prize their guns above all else and have gone out to buy even more weapons, especially since the NRA is so effective in scaring people into thinking that Obama has some "known objective." This is when this discussion starts sounding a little irrational, sadly.
Essentially, it is all about money. The NRA is all about money. The entertainment industry is all about money. Neither of these entities have any financial incentive to curb gun manufacturing or the making of yet more violent entertainment. The freedom and liberty to make money at all costs, no matter what the societal consequences may be.
With all of the gang bangers who openly ignore the laws in place already and possess many weapons illegally today, is taking guns away from law abiding citizens the correct response? I don't believe so, but that is what the media and the politicians will promote, yet the story of England, Canada and Australia among other nations does not support that outcome.
Sadly, I don't think most Americans care that much about "gang bangers" because they're a world away. Most gang activity revolves around drugs, which of course begs the question of whether or not gang activity would be diminished by the legalization of drugs. But that is a different debate.
I truly do not know why you keep bringing up countries such as England, Canada and Australia because none of those countries have the cultural and history link to gun ownership that we do here in the US. I really do not think that it is accurate to draw any parallels. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
It is time instead to secure our schools with simple security measures which are known to be effective as well as improve intervention strategies for known or suspected mentally ill kids at risk of this behavior.
Specifics, please, along with ideas on how to fund them.
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Dear Moosemom, that is exactly the point and in retrospect, warning signs in the Aurora shooter and this one as well as the Arizona shooter appear to have been over looked and ignored. There are unwanted effects of gun bans such as increased violence evident in England and Australia since their handgun bans. Germany took stringent action against guns after their 2002 school massacre which did not prevent their horrific 2009 school massacre nor did stringent gun laws prevent the horrific Norway massacre as well.
I was living in the UK at the time of Dunblane, and there was universal approval of a handgun ban after that horrible event.
It is probably true that there has been an increase in violence in general in the UK since Dunblane, but there is no evidence that this increase firearm related.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/17/world/europe/dunblane-lessons/index.html
True, strict gun control laws didn't prevent Germany's massacre of 2009 or the one in Norway, but my God, those are just TWO incidents in two separate countries over a period of YEARS whereas here in the US, how many of these horrible events have happened just in the past 12 months? There really is no comparison, Hemodoc, and thanks so much for so clearly illustrating just how warped our gun culture really is.
What is it about our culture that makes us so enamoured of guns and so vulnerable to this sort of mass shooting? Perhaps it is true that guns don't kill people, rather, it's people that kill people, and if that is so, what is wrong with our people? And before anyone starts chiming in with the excuse that America has moved away from God, please keep in mind that both England and Germany are far more secular than the US. Yet we are the ones who are constantly bombarded with ever increasing stories about mass murder at Sikh temples, cinemas, high schools, elementary schools, college campuses and even military bases. Really, what is wrong with us?
Since it is evident that gun laws alone do not prevent these mass murders, note that CT already has an assault weapons ban since 1994 in effect today, is it not prudent for security evaluations of all American schools implementing security measures effective in preventing or delaying mass shootings? The police response was excellent, but came minutes too late. Security measures that prevent access to class rooms themselves with simple measures to secure the room itself as a safe zone are surprising affordable and easy to to engage. The CT assault weapon ban is one more failure in a long list of gun control failures.
We openly took our hunting rifles and shotguns to school in the 70's when mass shootings were unheard of. Switzerland has the highest level of gun ownership in the world yet they have a low murder rate and low levels of crime in general. If we evaluate these issues objectively, it cannot be shown that guns by themselves are the root cause of our violent society. I fear greatly over reaction to such events leading to gun confiscation which is a long standing objective of this president that we as gun owners knew would rear it's ugly head after his reelection. As always, Obama never wastes a crises to implement his known objectives. Secretary Clinton already supported the UN small arms treaty before this tragedy before us, in fact, that was signed one day after his election.
With all of the gang bangers who openly ignore the laws in place already and possess many weapons illegally today, is taking guns away from law abiding citizens the correct response? I don't believe so, but that is what the media and the politicians will promote, yet the story of England, Canada and Australia among other nations does not support that outcome.
It is time instead to secure our schools with simple security measures which are known to be effective as well as improve intervention strategies for known or suspected mentally ill kids at risk of this behavior.
[/quote]
Dear Moosemom,
Actually folks have studied the issue of whether gun bans will reduce homicide and suicide. The surprising findings are that there is no correlation between gun ownership and homicide and suicide rates in the countries studied. Not just a fly by night review either, it was published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
So, if we are going to talk of killing of innocent children which does indeed include abortion and gun control, then let's look at objective evidence. The evidence is that counter to all prevailing popular attitudes, gun control is an utter failure in accomplishing what people want it to accomplish. Indeed, CT already has an assault weapons ban in place since 1994 that did not prevent this tragedy.
Gun owners do have serious questions on how the mother allowed access to these weapons which appears to be the single most important failure in this horrible story. Secondly, reports note worsening behavior with the shooter the week before this occurred. Mental health intervention at that point may have saved not only the mother's life, but that of 26 other people and her son.
Focussing only on assault weapons bans and gun control over looks the reality that CT ALREADY has these provisions in place. These horrible events are a relatively new phenomena that were almost unheard of a little more than a generation ago. The Aurora CO shooter, Arizona and this one were all known to have serious mental conditions that were not properly treated. In the case of the Aurora shootings, the man was kicked out of his university due to concerns of possible violence. Surely, taking that one step further to alert the police with simple checks of any weapons recently bought could have secured a search warrant that would have prevented that tragedy as well.
In all these cases, there were warning signs ignored by those who could have intervened including the Virginia tech tragedy. Yet, the emotional response is to state let's take away all of the guns instead of focussing on some very simple coordination between the mental health and the authorities to put these folks on the radar. If one of these troubled kids starts buying weapons, that would be probably cause for further intervention. All of these cases mentioned have many red flag warnings.
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There are a lot of interesting comments in this thread that I'd like to respond to, so pardon me if this post gets a bit lengthy (but y'all should be used to that by now! My reputation for being wordy will remain untarnished.)
@SimonDog, thank you for the suggestion to Google "Three Arms Competition". I did. My husband has a work colleague who is an ex-police officer and is an avid shooting competitor, and I've asked said husband to ask said colleague what sort of weapons he uses in competitions and how he keeps those weapons safe. He has a teenaged boy and a young daughter at home. I also want to ask if he sees using these weapons for self-defense.
Like I said, I can understand the fun one can have at such competitions, but must these competitions involve weapons used by the military? Can gun enthusiasts not find enjoyment using less lethal, less automatic weapons? Is your entertainment a more worthy cause than the effort to make our society less lethal?
Re violent video games, it strikes me that there are vulnerable people for whom sitting alone for hours on end playing these sorts of games is just a recipe for disaster. Many people play these sorts of games, and many people watch violent movies, but not all of them shoot children. Just as alcohol or recreational drugs are well tolerated by many, there are those for whom these substances lead to addiction, ruining their lives and the lives of their families in the process.
The fundamental question is whether or not we ban or inhibit access to violent instruments in our society, whether they be movies, video games or shooting competitions, because they can be accessed by people who become warped by them.
I saw an interview with a forensic psychologist yesterday, and he said something very interesting. He said that one common thread he has seen linking these shooters is that they have thrived on a culture of destruction. Violence destroys. He suggested that we need to recognize this trait in these vulnerable individuals and help them to create, not destroy. I thought that was an interesting opinion.
Re school security, Sandy Hook apparently had just upgraded its security protocols; no one could enter the building after 9:30 AM without being buzzed in and identified. But this shooter just shot through and destroyed a window, which shows that if someone wants to kill, chances are they will find a way to do so.
I personally think it is unwise and ineffective to arm school principals or teachers. Perhaps they do not want to handle firearms, and forcing them to do so would be a restriction of their freedom. Forcing them to undergo the required training is unfair and an infringment upon their personal liberty and maybe even their religious freedom if they feel that guns are immoral. If you want an armed presence at each school, then school districts should work with their respective community's police department and arrange to have a trained professional patrolling the outside of each school AND daycare facility. Now, this will be very expensive, but I have no doubt that each of us would be willing to pay more in school/property taxes to defray the costs, right? Right?
I fail to understand why anyone here would feel the need to go and tattle to the admins for something they read here. You'd think that after the horrific health problems we have to cope with, we'd have cultivated a little more toughness.
Dear Moosemom,
In the last few years, we have had a huge problem with smash and grab home robberies in our neighborhood. We added security gates front and back on our front door and sliding glass door in the back, a few selected window bars and on the rest of the at risk windows, ACE security glass that makes the glass shatter proof but also bullet resistant. The ACE security glass is very affordable and could be placed on all windows and doors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STZb-98A2BM
In addition, most hospitals already have card access systems preventing unwanted entry and that is standard for most hospitals. Simply upgrading schools to the security systems in place in hospitals would be very easy to implement and cost effective.
Lastly, the best security measure is trained and armed security personnel which is also a hallmark of hospital security. There is a reason not discussed often outside of gun forums in that schools are part of the gun free zones that these killers gravitate to. With over 40 states offering accessible concealed weapon permits to law abiding and trained citizens, one area of concern are the number of gun free zones that paradoxically become killing zones instead.
The Aurora movie theater episode demonstrates this graphically since some of those shot in the theater were CCW permit holders and active duty military. Gun free zones are one of the new advents in the last generation that did not exist when I was a kid. Where I went to high school, we brought our hunting rifles to school and no one ever shot up the school. As paradoxical as it sounds, allowing law abiding citizens who have CCW permits to carry in schools as well would send a message to these cowards that there may be well armed people and not just little kids and women who cannot fight back against guns that they alone possess. Once again, the one single element that all of these shootings have in common is that they occur in gun free zones. Are you really safer where you see those guns not allowed signs?
By the way, gang activity is NOT a remote issue to many of us especially living in southern CA. About 5 years ago, through section 8 welfare funding housing, a "family" moved into a home three doors down from our house with about 20 kids and 5 adults. Yes, that is what I said, 20 kids to the best we were able to count all of them. Fights were almost a daily occurrence in front of my house when school got out. I witnessed my only drug deal in person about 20 feet away from with a a 13 yo kid looking right at me. I saw something white and then something green. This 13 yo kid walked with the swagger that only comes with an illegal gun hidden in his baggy pants.
A couple of the adults were arrested for several drug and gang violations but HUD and the town did nothing to clean up this known gang infested home. Our only salvation was the owner foreclosing and loosing the home. Gangs and gang violence are NOT a theoretical risk at all.
How do you think these gangs will respond to further gun control initiatives? Think about it, who will not have guns in that situation? Yes, folks like me living 3 doors down from a known and active LA gang banging family. That is what is at risk, leaving folks unprotected while the criminals are armed to the teeth. Nothing theoretical about the situation at all.
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I frankly am frustrated MM has to go on and on about her way and considers no one else is right. Maybe there would be a teacher that would jump at the chance to have a gun. Right now they are not allowed. Their freedom has been taken away. She just assumes all teachers would cower at the thought. It doesn't have to be all or none ya know. Those that feel comfortable can do it.
People put stickers on their home that they have a security system. When they don't. Know why? It detours thieves. If there is a bad guy he won't go into a packed theater where he knows good guys have guns.
I'd like to put a sign in my yard that said. My house has guns.... the neighbor doesn't.
I don't really like guns but I sure want to be with someone who does if confronted.
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I frankly am frustrated MM has to go on and on about her way and considers no one else is right. Maybe there would be a teacher that would jump at the chance to have a gun. Right now they are not allowed. Their freedom has been taken away. She just assumes all teachers would cower at the thought. It doesn't have to be all or none ya know. Those that feel comfortable can do it.
People put stickers on their home that they have a security system. When they don't. Know why? It detours thieves. If there is a bad guy he won't go into a packed theater where he knows good guys have guns.
I'd like to put a sign in my yard that said. My house has guns.... the neighbor doesn't.
I don't really like guns but I sure want to be with someone who does if confronted.
Dear Rerun,
In the states where they have concealed carry permits such as ID and WA state, a very small percentage of people actually take advantage of this privilege. Yet, just the unknown of who carries and who doesn't is enough to serve as a huge deterrent in crimes. Here in Idaho, nearly half of my friends carry on a daily basis.
Teachers should NOT have to be required to carry in schools if they don't wish to exercise that right. It is not for everyone and NO ONE that does not have the training and experience should ever consider doing so. Only one school district in Texas arms teachers to date in this nation that I am aware. Not really the issue.
In CA, most of the schools already have a deputy sheriff assigned to the school or a couple of deputies in high risk areas.
As far as signs stating you are armed paradoxically makes you a target since stealing firearms is one of the items looked for in home robberies. Keeping a low profile with weapons is mandatory. No need to advertise them to the creeps. I do have my ADT signs outside though.
Once again, there are a lot of simple and cost effective security measures that schools can adopt just as we have done in hospitals that will make them more secure. The assault weapon ban in CT did not prevent this tragedy. It is time to open our eyes that these events can occur and plan for the worst case scenario when implementing security programs in schools. A buzzer system with bullet resistant doors could have been all that was needed to save 26 innocent lives last week. Plain glass alone didn't augment the buzzer system.
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Hemodoc, I absolutely agree that any discussion about gun control should also include discussions about mental illness, how it can be better identified and how it can be better treated. Referring yet again to yet another interview I saw last night with a health professional, it was pointed out that many of these troubled youths ARE referred to mental health professionals, yet all too often, they have time only to prescribe meds but not the time to monitor their patients. I'm sure you already know that the times when these patients are most vulnerable are when they start a new med or they come off of an old one. Yet the resources are apparently not there that would pay for more monitoring of these people at these times.
There are still too many uninsured people in this country who have no access to mental health screening or treatment. Out of curiosity, I looked at my own EPHP, and it would pay for only 12 mental health consults in one policy year. I would suggest that for many patients, this might not be enough.
I did see an interview who said that Adam Lanza had been identified as being "at risk" and had been monitored in his early years, but as he reached the higher grades in school, he seemed to fall out of the system somehow. What happened in this regard needs to be identified and mended.
I would agree with your perception that tragedies of this sort just didn't seem to happen, at least with this much frequency, a generation ago, so that begs the question, why is that? The 60's was a time of social unrest and violence; political assassinations, civil rights riots, anti-war demonstrations, Kent State. Back then, people had guns and people suffered from mental illness. But people didn't shoot kindergarteners. What do you think has changed?
As for school security, I am not sure that implementing an access card system would have prevented what happened in CT. There was already a restricted access protocol in place. Instead, Adam Lanza just shot out a window and got in that way.
As much as it saddens me, I am inclined to think that armed security guards might be the only measure left to us to prevent this type of thing happening again. Until we find other solutions (which will be expensive and won't be effective for many years to come), in the short term we might just have to have armed guards patrolling any facility in which there are children. Each state is going to have to find the funds to make that happen because the Federal government isn't going to be able to take on that particular financial responsibility. How are schools funded in your state, Hemodoc? Here, local schools are funded by property taxes. Would you be willing to pay a higher property tax rate to fund this sort of security at every school/day care facility?
I'm curious...what measures did you take to protect yourself from the "gang" that moved into that house three doors down from you? Did your wife know how to safely handle and effectively fire a weapon? Did you both carry a weapon whenever you left your home?
Lastly, I just heard on the news that people who are on the terrorist "no-fly" list are still legally permitted to have and/or purchase guns. This surprised me.
http://cnsnews.com/blog/terence-p-jeffrey/us-allowed-terrorists-no-fly-list-buy-guns
I suspect that "gun control" may mean different things to different people. I can't believe that responsible gun owners are OK with people who are barred in the US from getting on a plane being able to purchase deadly weapons in this country.
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I frankly am frustrated MM has to go on and on about her way and considers no one else is right. Maybe there would be a teacher that would jump at the chance to have a gun. Right now they are not allowed. Their freedom has been taken away. She just assumes all teachers would cower at the thought. It doesn't have to be all or none ya know. Those that feel comfortable can do it.
LOL! And here I was just agreeing with Hemodoc that focussing on gun control only without also considering mental health issues would be an ineffective way of dealing with the problem. :rofl;
No, I am making no assumptions about what teachers want or don't want. If there are teachers who are willing to go through the training and be properly certified, then that's fine. But before we go that route, we need to be very careful about how we would allow there to be storage of weapons and ammunition in an elementary school room that would keep such materiel safe from children yet still easily and quickly accessible.
So Rerun, if you were a grade school teacher in a class of, say, 20 6 year olds, how would you yourself get to your gun quickly yet still keep it safe from inquisitive little boys? Would you keep that gun in your desk already loaded? What kind of weapon would you have?
Do you think that most parents would be OK with their child's schoolteacher keeping a loaded rifle at her desk?
At any rate, thank you for your kind words.
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I'd certainly go along with installing bullet resistant doors and windows at all schools and daycare facilities, but again, how expensive is that? I truly don't know, so I'd be grateful if someone could tell me. It that an expense that should be borne by the school districts alone? Again, do you think that people would be willing to pay for that? How long would it take to retrofit all schools?
Should we be thinking about installing bullet proof doors and windows in all public places?
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Some People are being kind of unreasonable right now. Yes, it was tragic, terrible, and I still cant believe it happened. I wish it hadnt happened, and I too was scared and saddened, and worried... but then reason set in, and I was brought to the conclusion that we need to continue to live our lives. Not only for our own sake, but because We CAN. There are people who died from these tragedies, and their families, friends, and communities, who lost a piece of themselves because of these tragedies. Yes, please, pray for them or whatever you believe. Yes, mourn for them. Worry that it could happen, because it could, BUT hope that it wont. And stop fighting and arguing about things we cannot change. Why do that? Love one another and be happy that we will live another day, and our families are whole, because not all have that luxury right now.
Maybe merely mourning is not enough. And why get stuck into that trap of falling into inaction because these are things that "cannot change"? How many times in our history have people defied the odds and have indeed changed things that everyone else said could not be changed? Are we not a community here at IHD who are working hard to change the status quo that is dialysis as we know it? How many people said that slavery was here to stay or that women could never get the vote? We are not a nation that has ever sat back and done nothing because we truly thought that things would never change. Change is the essence of mankind. And change is happening at a faster and faster rate.
I can't help but remember that it wasn't all that long ago that no one really thought twice about drinking and driving. Just about everyone smoked. No one thought those things would ever change, but they did, and now smoking and drunk driving are socially unacceptable, and texting while driving is swiftly becoming unacceptable as well. Our fascination with violence coupled with a general sweeping under the rug of mental illness CAN change.
Yes, we should continue to live our lives, but we should also strive to make changes so that our lives, and the lives of our fellow Americans, will get better and safer.
Its possible that there may be a laspe in understanding here. Im not saying, dont try to change it. I am saying Dont fight and argue about it. The people who fight and argue about it arent trying to change it, they are just fighting and arguing. seems to me it would be in everyones better interest to put forth the effort used fighting and arguing into making changes... but thats just my opinion lol
I'd certainly go along with installing bullet resistant doors and windows at all schools and daycare facilities, but again, how expensive is that? I truly don't know, so I'd be grateful if someone could tell me. It that an expense that should be borne by the school districts alone? Again, do you think that people would be willing to pay for that? How long would it take to retrofit all schools?
Should we be thinking about installing bullet proof doors and windows in all public places?
I think thats a good idea... The cost doesnt outweigh the benefit. But as someone stated above somewhere, if they want in, they will find a way. same is with the gun issue, if they want one, they will find a way. its the law abiding people that will be left helpless.
Honestly, people in entertainment should get paid a hell of a lot less, and that money go toward schooling, and mental health, and other things we do need that have nothing to do with this thread so i wont bring them up lol
My only question though, why did it take such a tragedy to get people in such an uproar? I mean, like I have said, things like this have happened many times in the past, why now? why not then? Just an observation...
And ya, that is kind of ... eh... tattling? are we 5? I dont really understand tattling anyway, its one of my pet peeves with my son. I tell him unless someone is hurting you do not tell me, because I will send you away (im so mean! and im never far away that I dont know whats going on anyway, but i got tired of constantly hearing him and my neice, he touched my blanket, she told me to sit down, she stole my crayon etc) Its better to confront the problem than to make someone else deal with it... especially at our ages.
"cant we all just get along?" lol i keep thinking about that song, "Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends?"
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GLM, my apologies if I misunderstood the intent of your post! Fighting and arguing just for the sake of fighting and arguing won't change anything, but fighting and arguing has been a part of our heritage from this nation's founding, and that's OK as long as the goal is to actually eventually come to an agreement.
I think this particular tragedy "feels different", and it IS different because the victims were school children. I think we all felt it. As horrified as I was when I heard about the shootings in Arizona, Aurora, Ft. Hood and the Sikh temple in Wisconsin, hearing that so many young children were murdered at school made me gasp and then cry. It was exactly the same feeling I had when I heard about Dunblane. Children shot down while in their classrooms. Such young children are some of the most defenseless in society, and that's what makes this one so different.
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I frankly am frustrated MM has to go on and on about her way and considers no one else is right. Maybe there would be a teacher that would jump at the chance to have a gun. Right now they are not allowed. Their freedom has been taken away. She just assumes all teachers would cower at the thought. It doesn't have to be all or none ya know. Those that feel comfortable can do it.
LOL! And here I was just agreeing with Hemodoc that focussing on gun control only without also considering mental health issues would be an ineffective way of dealing with the problem. :rofl;
No, I am making no assumptions about what teachers want or don't want. If there are teachers who are willing to go through the training and be properly certified, then that's fine. But before we go that route, we need to be very careful about how we would allow there to be storage of weapons and ammunition in an elementary school room that would keep such materiel safe from children yet still easily and quickly accessible.
So Rerun, if you were a grade school teacher in a class of, say, 20 6 year olds, how would you yourself get to your gun quickly yet still keep it safe from inquisitive little boys? Would you keep that gun in your desk already loaded? What kind of weapon would you have?
Do you think that most parents would be OK with their child's schoolteacher keeping a loaded rifle at her desk?
At any rate, thank you for your kind words.
What about the parents who have to work with this teacher who has just "jumped at the chance" to have access to a gun at school? Don't you think it might interfere with my ability to honestly criticize this person's work when it is warranted (and I found my younger boy's kindergarten teacher downright abusive to him - just imagine if I had to go in there knowing she had a weapon.) When I asked the boys how they would feel if they had to go through security similar to an airport before school each day, Aidan said it would make school feel like a prison. I do suspect he's right. Do the kids get any say in this whatsoever? Both my kids said they would be scared if they knew that teachers had access to guns. My older son asked "what if that teacher got angry?" The younger boy said he would be scared if he didn't know the teacher, because "we wouldn't know if they were good or evil".
I, too, wish people would not go crying to the admins every time the discussion gets a bit heated. I have seen nothing written here that cannot be worked out between adults. It really saddens me that someone (or someones) feel they have to pester Karol with this, especially as it was her birthday yesterday. Sheesh.
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Lastly, I just heard on the news that people who are on the terrorist "no-fly" list are still legally permitted to have and/or purchase guns. This surprised me.
This is because the "no fly list" is not a finding of guilt; does not involve due process; does not give the non-flier the opportunity to confront the evidence against him/her; poses no mechanism to dispute the finding before a neutral finder of fact; etc. Depriving someone of a constitutional right without any of the aforementioned procedural safeguards is unlikely to survive even intermediate scrutiny.
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This is because the "no fly list" is not a finding of guilt; does not involve due process; does not give the non-flier the opportunity to confront the evidence against him/her; poses no mechanism to dispute the finding before a neutral finder of fact; etc. Depriving someone of a constitutional right without any of the aforementioned procedural safeguards is unlikely to survive even intermediate scrutiny.
My brother-in-law is apparently on a no-fly list in America. The only reason this hasn't forced him to write off the country as a holiday destination entirely is because the person they are actually concerned about is female. Otherwise, he is convinced that he would still be sequestered somewhere, arguing this out with Americans who struggle to understand his accent. :P
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My school has security like an airport. we had to remove our shoes, and stuff from pockets, and our coats, etc. And then we had to go through a metal detector. Sometimes a pat down, especially for people like me, who had multiple piercings. We were not allowed to wear belts, high top sneakers or boots ( because of long laces), we couldnt bring metal pop cans to school, there was a huge list of stuff...then only thing left was our fists, and plastic silverwear at lunch... (maybe a textbook? heh) And our teachers were trained on the 'art' of tackling the crap out of you if you were a threat to anyone. (I once saw a small student get tackled, and sat on, by a very hefty group of teachers. But that student was 'out of control') Yet I can tell you there was still violence.
And let me remind you, that was a little over 10 years ago.
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Gothic, it sounds like what we are thinking could or should be done, your school did it 10 years ago. Maybe there was still violence but the kids came out alive at the end of the day.
My nephew is a State Trouper and because he has the training and practice he has a cute little gun (off duty) that he slips in the back of his pants and he can draw it so fast the person would not know what hit him. I wanted one but he said no because I don't know how to use it and I'd have to start with bigger guns to get the feel of it. Unfortunately you won't get HIM at the school to protect kids. I'm sure we could only afford someone off RENO 911. We are going to get a guy who is over trying to see if anything is left from the FREE breakfast instead of doing his job. The cops at our mall are a joke.
It is going to have to be "maybe we have guns on site and maybe we don't". Make my day..... You wonder why people have assult rifles at all. Makes me wonder if people who love guns so much why they don't have those missiles they launch off their shoulders here. I bet a few people have those somewhere under their bed.
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Lastly, I just heard on the news that people who are on the terrorist "no-fly" list are still legally permitted to have and/or purchase guns. This surprised me.
This is because the "no fly list" is not a finding of guilt; does not involve due process; does not give the non-flier the opportunity to confront the evidence against him/her; poses no mechanism to dispute the finding before a neutral finder of fact; etc. Depriving someone of a constitutional right without any of the aforementioned procedural safeguards is unlikely to survive even intermediate scrutiny.
Hmm...yes, I understand. Those are good points.
Would you mind telling me more about your own personal mindset regarding guns? Do you own guns? How many and what kind? Where do you buy your guns? Do you carry a concealed weapon while you are out and about, just going about your daily business? What kind of background check did you have to submit to before getting a gun? Do you hunt?
In your state, In which public places is a person allowed to carry a gun?
Do you have a weapon at home, ready at alll times in case an intruder breaks into your home? Do other family members who live with you also have weapons at the ready for self defense?
One thing I've always wondered...if a person is allowed to carry a gun, what is the logic in keeping it concealed? It seems to me that if it is concealed, it will much harder to get to it, especially if you are female and are carrying groceries, if you see what I mean. Wouldn't you want others to know that you are carrying so that they would be less inclined to mess with you? I don't like the idea, personally, of conceal/carry, but if you are allowed to carry, then why conceal? Do you have any insight you could share with me?
What does "gun control" mean to you? What do you support, and what do you oppose...and why? What are your views regarding unregulated gun purchases at gun shows or on websites? Where do you think the line should be drawn, if there there should be any line drawn at all, regarding ammunition? How easy is it for guns and ammunition to be purchased or traded by people who are not legally eligible for gun ownership?
As a gun enthusiast, what would you say today to the families of those killed in Newtown who might want tougher gun laws? What do YOU think should be done to reduce the number of these tragedies? There are millions upon milliions of guns in this country; do all of these gun owners feel so defenseless without their own private arsenal?
We can all make sweeping statements, but I'd really like to hear from one individual who can coherently and willingly share their personal thoughts and experiences. I am really trying to understand why any one person would feel the need or desire to own multiple weapons along with various kinds of ammunition, so I've picked you to ask simply because yours is the first name I saw on this thread this evening. I apologize if you feel like I am putting you on the defensive; that is not my intention although I'd understand if you felt that way. I just have so many questions and would really like the opportunity to understand. Thank you!
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Random answers -
No, I don't hunt. I have no interest whatsoever in killing anything. My big blood exposure is going come if/when I make the PD->HD transition.
I shoot competitively. Some people push balls around a finely manicured landscape into little holes. My game is somewhat different. There are reasons people own guns other than just "feeling safe" or "hunting". In fact, from a "feeling safe" perspective, there is not really any difference between 1-2 guns and a large collection - so there must be reasons other than "protection" or nobody would collect (but then, you wouldn't play a whole game of golf with one club would you?).
The only areas in my state that are off limits to concealed carry for licensed people are schools, federal facilities, and some state buildings and courthouses (by administrative prohibition, not law).
Background check required to own any gun in my state, and nobody gets a permit good for concealed carry unless the local police decide they should have one. I have such a permit, but do not carry on a daily basis.
Concealed gives the element of surprise if one needs a gun and, in certain liberal states, the mere sight of a gun prompts "man with a gun" calls to the police, wastes everyone's time, and puts people ill at ease. Except in placed like New Hampshire and Arizona and maybe Alaska. Civilians tend to conceal when carrying for the same reasons that out of uniform off duty police do. I can say with reasonable confidence that my carry permit would most definitely be revoked if the local PD started to get reports of me carrying openly (it's "just not done" in my state).
From my point of view, it boils down to the equality of all in a free society. "Special" people will always have access to guns. Bloomberg calls for bans while surrounded by an armed detail; famous people like Bill Cosby; Shaun Penn and Donald Trump get carry permits in NYC where they are unavailable to "normal" people. My main criteria is that I oppose all laws that create a special class of people and give privileges to the rich, powerful, connected or even off duty/retired police that are not afforded to "ordinary folk". Part of that "All men are created equal" thing some radicals came up with in 1776.
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Oh man, am I glad for this thread. The day after this happened, the place I worked closed down the next day to honor this devasted community. I was sick at heart. I don't know the answers, but I agree, something should be done. I have weapons in my home. Know how to use them. I have them for protection only.
This guy was a wack job. Pre-meditated murder is the worst, but on innocent children. May he burn in Hell for his act. He knew full well what he was doing. Cowardly _ _ _. Yea he saved us from a loooonnng drawn out trial, but it would have been more justified to have him die a slow & painful death. Yes Im Christian & I definately feel this way towards this EVIL boy, man whatever you want to call him.
At anyrate, alot of the people I work with have children the ages of these & I have grand-children of this age. It is uncontionable to me. Those children were of an innocent age and I think that is what is at the very rage within our souls. Im glad we shut down one day to honor them. I work for some really good hearted people and God Bless them everyone.
Newtown will never be the same. I remember those murders in Dublin too? That was not so long ago either. Yea I think something should be done, but I don't think gun laws will do anything to solve it. There will always be a sick B_ _ _ _ _D out there wanting to kill for some ungodly reason.
Im sick to my stomach thinking about this!
God Forgive me for my thoughts, but Im not passive in situations such as these! It chaps my ass!!!!
lmunchkin :kickstart;
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STOP!
There are many bad things that are happening in this world right now.
This is about:
(CNN) -- When a gunman opened fire inside a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school Friday, he cut short 26 lives. Six women who worked at Sandy Hook Elementary were killed, in addition to 20 students -- twelve girls and eight boys -- according to state police.
Here are details about their lives:
Charlotte Bacon, 6
Charlotte was sweet, outgoing and full of energy, her grandmother told CNN affiliate WCCO in Minnesota.
"This is tough. This is surreal. You can't believe this could happen," Irene Hagen told the network. "The whole family is just devastated and we're all trying to come to terms with it."
She said her granddaughter loved school and dresses. Her hair was a mass of beautiful red curls.
"It's horrible. It's really horrible," Hagen told WCCO. "It's hard to believe that someone would kill children, innocent children."
Rachel D'Avino, 29
She likely didn't know it when she died, but her best friend was about to propose.
He had recently asked Rachel's parents for permission, and he was planning to ask for her hand in marriage on Christmas Eve.
That and other details about Rachel's life were described in an obituary posted on the website of Munson-Lovetere Funeral Homes of Connecticut.
"Her presence and tremendous smile brightened any room she entered," it read.
Born in Waterbury, Rachel received her undergraduate degree from the University of Hartford and her Masters from Post University. She was working toward her Doctorate at the University of St. Joseph of Hartford.
Rachel loved karate, cooking, animals, photography and her two younger siblings.
"Her passion, however, was her occupation as a behavioral therapist working with children within the autism spectrum," the obituary read.
In lieu of flowers, it asked that donations be made to Autism Speaks, an advocay organization.
Olivia Engel, 6
Her favorite stuffed animal was a lamb; pink and purple were her favorite colors.
Olivia's family posted a statement on Facebook with those and other details about their beloved daughter.
"She was insightful for her age and had a great sense of humor. She laughed a lot and always lit up a room including the people around her. She was very creative and was always drawing and designing things," her family said.
Olivia took art and dance lessons, played tennis, soccer and swam. She was involved in Girl Scouts and musical theater. She loved school and did well in math and reading.
Her family described her as a "grateful child ... never greedy." Each night, Olivia led grace at the dinner table.
Dylan Hockley, 6
"To know him was to love him," Dylan's grandmother told the Boston Herald about her grandson.
Dylan loved video games, jumping on a trampoline, watching movies and munching garlic bread, she said. He had dimples, blue eyes and "the most mischievous little grin," Theresa Moretti told the newspaper.
She said her daughter and son-in-law moved to Connecticut from England and chose to live where they did because of the schools. Dylan had an older brother.
"He was an angel," Moretti told the Herald. "And I think that's now why he's in heaven."
Dawn Lafferty Hochsprung, 47
Hochsprung, who became Sandy Hook Elementary School's principal two years ago, was "really nice and very fun, but she was also very much a tough lady in the right sort of sense," friend Tom Prunty said. And the students loved her. "Even little kids know when someone cares about them, and that was her," Prunty said.
"I never saw her without a smile," said Aimee Seaver, mother of a first-grader.
Hochsprung lived in Woodbury, Connecticut, with her husband, two daughters and three stepdaughters.
The longtime career educator majored in special education for her bachelor's and master's degrees in the 1990s and had just entered the Ph.D. program at Esteves School of Education at the Sage Colleges in New York last summer. Hochsprung led a school district's strategic planning panel and was the recipient of a national school grant.
Her accomplishments included overseeing the installation of a new security system requiring every visitor to ring the front entrance's doorbell after the school doors locked at 9:30 a.m.
"My mom, Dawn Hochsprung, was taken tragically from me. But she went down in a blaze of glory that truly represents who she was," her daughter, Cristina Hassinger, tweeted.
Jesse Lewis, 6
Jesse loved math, riding horses and playing at his mom's farm, his father told the New York Post.
"He was just a happy boy," said Neil Heslin. "Everybody knew Jesse."
He told the newspaper his son was to make gingerbread houses at school Friday. Heslin was planning to help.
Instead, the last time he saw his son was when he dropped him off at school at 9 a.m.
"He was going to go places in life," Heslin told the Post.
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
"1, 2, 3, ready and go," Ana counts down in a homemade video provided to CNN affiliate WTIC.
The girl in pigtails stands in front of a piano as her brother plays. Her voice is clear, bigger than her size. Ana smiles and waves.
Her father, Jimmy Greene, is a jazz musician. His representative released a statement on Ana's death, describing the little girl as "beautiful and vibrant."
"The family has requested privacy at this time of heartbreaking loss," it read. They "have asked us to relay their sincere gratitude for the outpouring of support and sympathy locally, nationally and internationally."
Grace McDonnell, 7
The ultimate "girly girl." Grace loved wearing pink and playing dress-up with jewelry, her grandmother told the Boston Herald.
As Mary Ann McDonnell spoke, she was surrounded by Christmas presents meant for Grace, Gracie, as she was sometimes called.
The little girl loved art, gymnastics, soccer and her small spaniel, Puddin', her grandmother said.
"She was a wonderful little girl. She was always smiling," McDonnell told the newspaper. "I think everybody should know about these beautiful children whose lives were cut short."
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
A hero. That's how a first responder reportedly described Murphy to her father.
He told Newsday that authorities told him her body was found in a classroom, covering young children killed in the shooting in an apparent attempt to shield them.
"She died doing what she loved. She was serving children and serving God," Murphy's mother, Alice McGowan, told the newspaper.
A married mother of four, Murphy was artistic and hardworking, her parents said.
"She was a happy soul," her mother told Newsday. "She was a very good daughter, a good mother, a good wife."
Emilie Parker, 6
She could "light up a room," Emilie's father said about his oldest daughter.
Robbie Parker described her as "bright, creative and very loving." Emilie was always willing to try new things, he said, except food. Her laugh was infectious.
"My daughter Emilie would be one of the first ones to be standing up and giving her love and support to all of those victims, because that is the type of person she is," said Parker.
He said she was "an exceptional artist and she always carried around her markers and pencils so she never missed an opportunity to draw a picture or make a card for someone."
"This world is a better place because she has been in it," Parker said.
Emilie's aunt described her niece as the "sweetest little girl I've ever known."
The family is devastated that "someone so beautiful and perfect is no longer going to be in our lives and for no reason," said Jill Cottle Garrett.
Emilie's father, who works as a physician's assistant in the newborn unit at the Danbury hospital, recalled his last conversation with his daughter was in Portuguese, a language he was teaching her.
"She said that she loved me, and I gave her a kiss and I was out the door," he said.
Noah Pozner, 6
"He had a huge heart and he was so much fun, a little bit rambunctious, lots of spirit," Noah's aunt told CNN. "He was really the light of the room."
Victoria Haller said her nephew loved playing with his cousins and siblings, especially his twin sister.
"He was a gorgeous, gorgeous boy and he could really get what he wanted just by batting those long eyelashes and looking at you with those big blue eyes. You really couldn't say no to him," she said.
His siblings don't know yet the exact way in which Noah passed away, Haller said.
"How do you tell them that's how their brother died?" she asked. "It's the unthinkable really."
Jessica Rekos, 6
Jessica loved everything about horses -- horse movies, horse books, drawing horses and writing stories about them.
She asked Santa this year for new cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat. Her family had promised she could get her own horse when she turned 10.
"She was a creative, beautiful, little girl," her family said in a statement, describing Jessica as their "rock."
"She had an answer for everything, she didn't miss a trick, and she outsmarted us every time. We called her our little CEO for the way she carefully thought out and planned everything," they said. "We can not imagine our life without her."
Jessica also loved orca whales and playing with her two little brothers.
"We are mourning her loss, sharing our beautiful memories we have of her, and trying to help her brother Travis understand why he can't play with his best friend," her family said.
Lauren Rousseau, 30
Rousseau, a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, "wanted to be a teacher from before she even went to kindergarten," her mother said in a written statement Saturday. "We will miss her terribly and will take comfort knowing that she had achieved that dream," Teresa Rousseau said.
She grew up in Danbury, Connecticut, and earned a bachelor's degree from the University of Connecticut and a master's degree in elementary education from the University of Bridgeport.
Rousseau "worked as a substitute teacher in Danbury, New Milford and Newtown before she was hired in November as a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown," her mother said.
Mary Sherlach, 56
Sherlach, Sandy Hook Elementary's school psychologist, was with Hochsprung when they heard a "pop, pop, pop" sound around 9:30 a.m., a parent with both women at the time told CNN. Sherlach was shot to death after heading into the hall to find out what was happening.
"I ... am always ready to assist in problem-solving, intervention and prevention," Sherlach wrote on her website.
Sherlach earned her undergraduate degree in psychology at SUNY Cortland and a master's degree at Southern Connecticut State University. She worked as a rehabilitation assistant at a group home for disabled adults and as a community mental health placement specialist before becoming a school psychologist.
She worked in three Connecticut school systems before moving to Sandy Hook Elementary in 1994. During her time in Newtown, Sherlach kept busy as a member of numerous groups such as the district conflict resolution committee, safe school climate committee, crisis intervention team and student instructional team.
Sherlach and her husband for more than three decades lived in Trumbull, Connecticut, and, together, they were "proud parents" of two daughters in their late 20s. Her website listed her interests as gardening, reading and going to the theater.
Victoria Soto, 27
Soto, a first-grade teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, moved her students away from the classroom door when she heard gunfire, which students initially "thought were hammers falling," according to the father of one of her students.
"That's when the gunman burst in, did not say a word, no facial expressions, and proceeded to shoot their teacher," said Robert Licata, whose 6-year-old son, Aiden, escaped by running past the shooter.
Soto's mother said her daughter was selfless.
"She would not hesitate to think to save anyone else before herself and especially children. She loved them more than life, and she would definitely put herself in front of them any day," Donna Soto told CNN's Piers Morgan.
Soto wanted to be a teacher since she was 3 and talked about her students with "such fondness and caring," her mother said.
Soto's cousin, James Wiltsie, said Soto "instinctively went into action when a monster came into her classroom and tried to protect the kids that she loved so much."
"We just want the public to know that Vicki was a hero," he said.
Soto had a dog she loved. The black lab Roxie spent Saturday wandering around Soto's apartment, apparently looking for her, relatives said.
Other victims
Daniel Barden, 7; Josephine Gay, 7; Madeleine Hsu, 6; Catherine Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; James Mattioli, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison Wyatt, 6.
To make this thread about your politics or religious views is wrong. If you can't see that then I guess you never will.
May they rest in peace.
Chill out YL, that is bad for your health. Everyone is angered and shocked by these tragic events that sadly could have been prevented. If Rerun and Moosemom and even me want to talk openly about these issues, that is the IHD way YL in the OFF TOPIC, DISCUSS ANYTHING YOU
WANT SECTION. We are all sickened and angered by the loss of innocent life which some of us likewise feel about abortion. Sorry, but if you can't handle discussions on these issues, perhaps you need to take a time out.
Again you show that you do not have a clue about what you are talking about. If you don't know, don't say anything about it. It really makes you look like a stupid :sir ken; . I guess if the :sir ken; fits, wear it.
You owe me an apology for stating facts about me that are completely untrue.
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STOP!
There are many bad things that are happening in this world right now.
This is about:
(CNN) -- When a gunman opened fire inside a Newtown, Connecticut, elementary school Friday, he cut short 26 lives. Six women who worked at Sandy Hook Elementary were killed, in addition to 20 students -- twelve girls and eight boys -- according to state police.
Here are details about their lives:
Charlotte Bacon, 6
Charlotte was sweet, outgoing and full of energy, her grandmother told CNN affiliate WCCO in Minnesota.
"This is tough. This is surreal. You can't believe this could happen," Irene Hagen told the network. "The whole family is just devastated and we're all trying to come to terms with it."
She said her granddaughter loved school and dresses. Her hair was a mass of beautiful red curls.
"It's horrible. It's really horrible," Hagen told WCCO. "It's hard to believe that someone would kill children, innocent children."
Rachel D'Avino, 29
She likely didn't know it when she died, but her best friend was about to propose.
He had recently asked Rachel's parents for permission, and he was planning to ask for her hand in marriage on Christmas Eve.
That and other details about Rachel's life were described in an obituary posted on the website of Munson-Lovetere Funeral Homes of Connecticut.
"Her presence and tremendous smile brightened any room she entered," it read.
Born in Waterbury, Rachel received her undergraduate degree from the University of Hartford and her Masters from Post University. She was working toward her Doctorate at the University of St. Joseph of Hartford.
Rachel loved karate, cooking, animals, photography and her two younger siblings.
"Her passion, however, was her occupation as a behavioral therapist working with children within the autism spectrum," the obituary read.
In lieu of flowers, it asked that donations be made to Autism Speaks, an advocay organization.
Olivia Engel, 6
Her favorite stuffed animal was a lamb; pink and purple were her favorite colors.
Olivia's family posted a statement on Facebook with those and other details about their beloved daughter.
"She was insightful for her age and had a great sense of humor. She laughed a lot and always lit up a room including the people around her. She was very creative and was always drawing and designing things," her family said.
Olivia took art and dance lessons, played tennis, soccer and swam. She was involved in Girl Scouts and musical theater. She loved school and did well in math and reading.
Her family described her as a "grateful child ... never greedy." Each night, Olivia led grace at the dinner table.
Dylan Hockley, 6
"To know him was to love him," Dylan's grandmother told the Boston Herald about her grandson.
Dylan loved video games, jumping on a trampoline, watching movies and munching garlic bread, she said. He had dimples, blue eyes and "the most mischievous little grin," Theresa Moretti told the newspaper.
She said her daughter and son-in-law moved to Connecticut from England and chose to live where they did because of the schools. Dylan had an older brother.
"He was an angel," Moretti told the Herald. "And I think that's now why he's in heaven."
Dawn Lafferty Hochsprung, 47
Hochsprung, who became Sandy Hook Elementary School's principal two years ago, was "really nice and very fun, but she was also very much a tough lady in the right sort of sense," friend Tom Prunty said. And the students loved her. "Even little kids know when someone cares about them, and that was her," Prunty said.
"I never saw her without a smile," said Aimee Seaver, mother of a first-grader.
Hochsprung lived in Woodbury, Connecticut, with her husband, two daughters and three stepdaughters.
The longtime career educator majored in special education for her bachelor's and master's degrees in the 1990s and had just entered the Ph.D. program at Esteves School of Education at the Sage Colleges in New York last summer. Hochsprung led a school district's strategic planning panel and was the recipient of a national school grant.
Her accomplishments included overseeing the installation of a new security system requiring every visitor to ring the front entrance's doorbell after the school doors locked at 9:30 a.m.
"My mom, Dawn Hochsprung, was taken tragically from me. But she went down in a blaze of glory that truly represents who she was," her daughter, Cristina Hassinger, tweeted.
Jesse Lewis, 6
Jesse loved math, riding horses and playing at his mom's farm, his father told the New York Post.
"He was just a happy boy," said Neil Heslin. "Everybody knew Jesse."
He told the newspaper his son was to make gingerbread houses at school Friday. Heslin was planning to help.
Instead, the last time he saw his son was when he dropped him off at school at 9 a.m.
"He was going to go places in life," Heslin told the Post.
Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
"1, 2, 3, ready and go," Ana counts down in a homemade video provided to CNN affiliate WTIC.
The girl in pigtails stands in front of a piano as her brother plays. Her voice is clear, bigger than her size. Ana smiles and waves.
Her father, Jimmy Greene, is a jazz musician. His representative released a statement on Ana's death, describing the little girl as "beautiful and vibrant."
"The family has requested privacy at this time of heartbreaking loss," it read. They "have asked us to relay their sincere gratitude for the outpouring of support and sympathy locally, nationally and internationally."
Grace McDonnell, 7
The ultimate "girly girl." Grace loved wearing pink and playing dress-up with jewelry, her grandmother told the Boston Herald.
As Mary Ann McDonnell spoke, she was surrounded by Christmas presents meant for Grace, Gracie, as she was sometimes called.
The little girl loved art, gymnastics, soccer and her small spaniel, Puddin', her grandmother said.
"She was a wonderful little girl. She was always smiling," McDonnell told the newspaper. "I think everybody should know about these beautiful children whose lives were cut short."
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
A hero. That's how a first responder reportedly described Murphy to her father.
He told Newsday that authorities told him her body was found in a classroom, covering young children killed in the shooting in an apparent attempt to shield them.
"She died doing what she loved. She was serving children and serving God," Murphy's mother, Alice McGowan, told the newspaper.
A married mother of four, Murphy was artistic and hardworking, her parents said.
"She was a happy soul," her mother told Newsday. "She was a very good daughter, a good mother, a good wife."
Emilie Parker, 6
She could "light up a room," Emilie's father said about his oldest daughter.
Robbie Parker described her as "bright, creative and very loving." Emilie was always willing to try new things, he said, except food. Her laugh was infectious.
"My daughter Emilie would be one of the first ones to be standing up and giving her love and support to all of those victims, because that is the type of person she is," said Parker.
He said she was "an exceptional artist and she always carried around her markers and pencils so she never missed an opportunity to draw a picture or make a card for someone."
"This world is a better place because she has been in it," Parker said.
Emilie's aunt described her niece as the "sweetest little girl I've ever known."
The family is devastated that "someone so beautiful and perfect is no longer going to be in our lives and for no reason," said Jill Cottle Garrett.
Emilie's father, who works as a physician's assistant in the newborn unit at the Danbury hospital, recalled his last conversation with his daughter was in Portuguese, a language he was teaching her.
"She said that she loved me, and I gave her a kiss and I was out the door," he said.
Noah Pozner, 6
"He had a huge heart and he was so much fun, a little bit rambunctious, lots of spirit," Noah's aunt told CNN. "He was really the light of the room."
Victoria Haller said her nephew loved playing with his cousins and siblings, especially his twin sister.
"He was a gorgeous, gorgeous boy and he could really get what he wanted just by batting those long eyelashes and looking at you with those big blue eyes. You really couldn't say no to him," she said.
His siblings don't know yet the exact way in which Noah passed away, Haller said.
"How do you tell them that's how their brother died?" she asked. "It's the unthinkable really."
Jessica Rekos, 6
Jessica loved everything about horses -- horse movies, horse books, drawing horses and writing stories about them.
She asked Santa this year for new cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat. Her family had promised she could get her own horse when she turned 10.
"She was a creative, beautiful, little girl," her family said in a statement, describing Jessica as their "rock."
"She had an answer for everything, she didn't miss a trick, and she outsmarted us every time. We called her our little CEO for the way she carefully thought out and planned everything," they said. "We can not imagine our life without her."
Jessica also loved orca whales and playing with her two little brothers.
"We are mourning her loss, sharing our beautiful memories we have of her, and trying to help her brother Travis understand why he can't play with his best friend," her family said.
Lauren Rousseau, 30
Rousseau, a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, "wanted to be a teacher from before she even went to kindergarten," her mother said in a written statement Saturday. "We will miss her terribly and will take comfort knowing that she had achieved that dream," Teresa Rousseau said.
She grew up in Danbury, Connecticut, and earned a bachelor's degree from the University of Connecticut and a master's degree in elementary education from the University of Bridgeport.
Rousseau "worked as a substitute teacher in Danbury, New Milford and Newtown before she was hired in November as a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown," her mother said.
Mary Sherlach, 56
Sherlach, Sandy Hook Elementary's school psychologist, was with Hochsprung when they heard a "pop, pop, pop" sound around 9:30 a.m., a parent with both women at the time told CNN. Sherlach was shot to death after heading into the hall to find out what was happening.
"I ... am always ready to assist in problem-solving, intervention and prevention," Sherlach wrote on her website.
Sherlach earned her undergraduate degree in psychology at SUNY Cortland and a master's degree at Southern Connecticut State University. She worked as a rehabilitation assistant at a group home for disabled adults and as a community mental health placement specialist before becoming a school psychologist.
She worked in three Connecticut school systems before moving to Sandy Hook Elementary in 1994. During her time in Newtown, Sherlach kept busy as a member of numerous groups such as the district conflict resolution committee, safe school climate committee, crisis intervention team and student instructional team.
Sherlach and her husband for more than three decades lived in Trumbull, Connecticut, and, together, they were "proud parents" of two daughters in their late 20s. Her website listed her interests as gardening, reading and going to the theater.
Victoria Soto, 27
Soto, a first-grade teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, moved her students away from the classroom door when she heard gunfire, which students initially "thought were hammers falling," according to the father of one of her students.
"That's when the gunman burst in, did not say a word, no facial expressions, and proceeded to shoot their teacher," said Robert Licata, whose 6-year-old son, Aiden, escaped by running past the shooter.
Soto's mother said her daughter was selfless.
"She would not hesitate to think to save anyone else before herself and especially children. She loved them more than life, and she would definitely put herself in front of them any day," Donna Soto told CNN's Piers Morgan.
Soto wanted to be a teacher since she was 3 and talked about her students with "such fondness and caring," her mother said.
Soto's cousin, James Wiltsie, said Soto "instinctively went into action when a monster came into her classroom and tried to protect the kids that she loved so much."
"We just want the public to know that Vicki was a hero," he said.
Soto had a dog she loved. The black lab Roxie spent Saturday wandering around Soto's apartment, apparently looking for her, relatives said.
Other victims
Daniel Barden, 7; Josephine Gay, 7; Madeleine Hsu, 6; Catherine Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; James Mattioli, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison Wyatt, 6.
To make this thread about your politics or religious views is wrong. If you can't see that then I guess you never will.
May they rest in peace.
Chill out YL, that is bad for your health. Everyone is angered and shocked by these tragic events that sadly could have been prevented. If Rerun and Moosemom and even me want to talk openly about these issues, that is the IHD way YL in the OFF TOPIC, DISCUSS ANYTHING YOU
WANT SECTION. We are all sickened and angered by the loss of innocent life which some of us likewise feel about abortion. Sorry, but if you can't handle discussions on these issues, perhaps you need to take a time out.
Again you show that you do not have a clue about what you are talking about. If you don't know, don't say anything about it. It really makes you look like a stupid :sir ken; . I guess if the :sir ken; fits, wear it.
You owe me an apology for stating facts about me that are completely untrue.
Hey YL, chill out man.
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the schools in my district have used the "doorbell" system since columbine. the same system they use at sandy hook. works well if you don't know the person or can see the guns. however if the person is known to the office as in this case......well there you know the gunman is inside and........ i don't know what the answer is.
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the schools in my district have used the "doorbell" system since columbine. the same system they use at sandy hook. works well if you don't know the person or can see the guns. however if the person is known to the office as in this case......well there you know the gunman is inside and........ i don't know what the answer is.
This guy was not known to the office. He was wearing black gear and a mask of some sort. He broke into the office via the window. He did not ring a bell or even try to use the door. I don't know if he shot it open w/one of his many guns and ammo, or if he kicked it in, or what. But he was not let in by anyone on the staff. Contrary to early reports, his mother never worked at the school, nor was he ever a student there.
KarenInWA
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the schools in my district have used the "doorbell" system since columbine. the same system they use at sandy hook. works well if you don't know the person or can see the guns. however if the person is known to the office as in this case......well there you know the gunman is inside and........ i don't know what the answer is.
They do in my town as well. If you are not known, you get buzzed in and report to the office to explain your business in the school and given a visitor tag if they decide to let you in. The effectiveness of this approach in deterring a suicidal, motivated and armed adversary is left as an exercise to the reader.
I have visited a secure facility where the person opening the door is behind ballistic glass and does not open the entrance until AFTER you have passed through a metal detector and your belongings/parcels have passed a self-serve x-ray scanner. While more effective, it's probably not practical at a public school.
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SimonDog, thanks so much for your replies to my questions. I appreciate it. Like I've said before, I can see the fun one can have in a shooting competition.
I've never really thought about gun ownership from the point of view of making sure that there are no "special" groups/individuals that have access to guns while "regular folk" do not. Do you have any idea why the likes of Bill Cosby, Sean Penn and Donald Trump would be granted special permits to carry in NYC or why they would even want them in the first place?
Yeah, I can understand that openly carrying a handgun is "not done".
Thanks again for your reply.
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SimonDog, thanks so much for your replies to my questions. I appreciate it. Like I've said before, I can see the fun one can have in a shooting competition.
I've never really thought about gun ownership from the point of view of making sure that there are no "special" groups/individuals that have access to guns while "regular folk" do not. Do you have any idea why the likes of Bill Cosby, Sean Penn and Donald Trump would be granted special permits to carry in NYC or why they would even want them in the first place?
Yeah, I can understand that openly carrying a handgun is "not done".
Thanks again for your reply.
Dear Moosemom,
Some of the most distressed folks in any of these mass shootings are the lawful gun owners who have done nothing wrong, but will have the blame of these atrocities placed on them since it is such a hot political issue.
This case appears to be a failure of two things from what we know to this date. First, the mental health system. The latest reports are that the motive for this killing was the kid over hearing that his mother wanted to place him in a mental institution. If the mother was in consultation with a mental health counselor and it was the opinion that the child was a danger to himself or others, that demands an immediate response.
I sent people in ambulances from my office when I suspected that they were a danger to themselves or others many times in my career. If the concern was that the kid was a danger to himself or others, then that demands an immediate intervention and not plans to intervene in the future.
The second issue is that of how did this kid have any access to his mother's lawful weapons if she was so concerned as to consider placing him in a mental institution.
Just as with the Aurora shooter, there was an opportunity to prevent the taking of life. In the last 40 years, the mental health system was systematically dismantled. Inpatient treatment centers are woefully lacking in this nation. Mental health coverage is often limited to 12 outpatient visits in 12 months which may be appropriate for folks dealing with difficulties in life, but not for patients with severe mental illnesses.
Those of us that do own guns understood that gun control would always be an important part of Obama's second term. We also understand that just as most major nations have lost gun rights, it is only a matter of time before they take them away here as well. Sadly, the hoped for safety will never materialize and in fact, with the horrific gang problem we have today, disarming law abiding citizens is the last thing we should be considering.
Improving school security has the most hope of preventing future tragedies. CT never overturned their assault weapon ban after the Federal ban expired in 2004. Many of the proposed "fixes" for this issue are already in place in CT today yet they failed to prevent this tragedy.
Perhaps it is time to take an objective look at what causes these tragedies instead of just reacting in an emotional manner. Many in the gun community believe that there are things we can fix to improve safety for all.
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Aidan said it would make school feel like a prison. I do suspect he's right. Do the kids get any say in this whatsoever? Both my kids said they would be scared if they knew that teachers had access to guns. My older son asked "what if that teacher got angry?" The younger boy said he would be scared if he didn't know the teacher, because "we wouldn't know if they were good or evil".
I wasn't going to comment on this thread, mostly because it's made me realise that American culture is in many respects so completely different to British culture that we may as well come from different planets, but I think this is one of the most important issues about what's happened ...
The majority of children feel safe, happy and secure at school. This is without the need for security guards and airport style scanners and armed teachers. And children have the right to feel safe in school; some children spend more time on school premises than they may spend in their own homes so the environment needs to support them in feeling safe, secure and happy. Arming members of staff or creating an environment which is too secure will scare many children. A life of fear and paranoia is not something any of us should want for children. Surely it could even cause problems further down the line as (for some) the fear and paranoia that is subcosciously drummed into them at an early age may manifest itself in adulthood?
This tragedy was so sad because it is so very VERY rare. And although it is no consolation for the families of those poor little angels, we should be thankful that none of us live in communities where this is everyday (or even every year) news. We cannot wrap our children in cotton wool on the basis that it might happen again, somewhere in the world, one day in the maybe distant future; they must have the opportunity and enjoyment to actually be children. Yes, we can learn to take precautions and try our best to prevent something like this happening but we shouldn't do it to the extent that we scare children.
:(
[As a sidenote, I am interested in seeing the statistics which show the UK has had an alleged increase in violent crimes since the gun/firearms legislation changed following our own tragedy at Dunblane in 1996, especially bearing in mind that the UK has NEVER had the gun culture that America has. I'm more inclined to believe that if violent crime statistics have risen it's purely because more people report them now (I suspect such crimes as domestic violence and rape are to be found within the realm of violent crime, but I may be mistaken).]
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the schools in my district have used the "doorbell" system since columbine. the same system they use at sandy hook. works well if you don't know the person or can see the guns. however if the person is known to the office as in this case......well there you know the gunman is inside and........ i don't know what the answer is.
This guy was not known to the office. He was wearing black gear and a mask of some sort. He broke into the office via the window. He did not ring a bell or even try to use the door. I don't know if he shot it open w/one of his many guns and ammo, or if he kicked it in, or what. But he was not let in by anyone on the staff. Contrary to early reports, his mother never worked at the school, nor was he ever a student there.
KarenInWA
Latest reports: Nancy Lanza volunteered with the kindergartners for numerous years at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Also, Adam Lanza attended 5th grade there.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/adam-lanza-motive_n_2329508.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2012/12/18/adam-lanza-sandy-hook-student/1777525/
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This tragedy was so sad because it is so very VERY rare.
The US has had 61 mass killings (meaning 5 or more dead) since 1982. That doesn't even include incidents like the man who shoot his child's mother and her cousin outside the counselor's office just minutes from my house - the day after Newport. Is two a year on average really all that rare?
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Tuesday night, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer offered a proposition that could offer legislators in Washington, D.C. the chance to avoid a kneejerk reaction to last week’s shooting in Newton, CT.
Krauthammer’s hypothetical committee apparently would be different from the task force headed by Vice President Joe Biden in that it would be fashioned much like the 2002 9/11 Commission, which both then-President George W. Bush and Congress had a hand in establishing.
“There are people who want to use this as a partisan advantage or to scapegoat the NRA or to win over one side in this argument,” Krauthammer said. “I think one way to get around that in the passion of the moment is to do what Joe Lieberman suggested. To appoint a commission — this is not to put it off indefinitely — we had a commission after 9-11 because there is going to be a rush to judgment on this. I think it’s likely that we’re going to pass weapons laws that will be completely useless and I think it would be far better to appoint a commission to report in three months, six months, maybe Lieberman, maybe Giuliani to head it and to report and to look not just at guns, which is the only place where liberals want to look, but to look at the other two elements of any mass shooting.”
According to Krauthammer, the gun issue isn’t the only facet of the crime that the commission should examine.
“There is the shooter, there is the gun and the environment,” Krauthammer said. “And we’re talking about the commitment laws for the dangerously mentally ill, which are extremely lax in the United States of America. And although it would not probably have affected what happened in Connecticut, it would surely have affected what happened in Tucson where the guy was obviously a danger. Everybody knew he was. And the only way you could stop him, the only way you could incarcerate him is after he killed.’
“And the third element is the culture, the violence,” he continued. “In the movies, in the video games where without a doubt children are desensitized to violence. It’s either glorified or trivialized to a point that is truly shocking. And if you have a kid looking at a screen who is already sort of living in an internal world where you mow down people for entertainment on the screen, no pain, no consequences, it’s not surprising they would imitate that.”
http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/19/krauthammer-proposes-newtown-commission-headed-by-lieberman-giuliani/#ixzz2FXVfXT6Q
Krauthammer: I Would Start With The Psychology of the Killer
Dr. Charles Krauthammer explains his views on today’s terrible tragedy: “People are going to divide into three camps, there are three elements here, the psychology of the shooter, you’ve got the weapon, and you’ve got the cultural environment. . . . I tend to gravitate towards the psychology of the killer.”
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/335721/krauthammer-i-would-start-psychology-killer-nathaniel-botwinick
(please play the video)
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Aidan said it would make school feel like a prison. I do suspect he's right. Do the kids get any say in this whatsoever? Both my kids said they would be scared if they knew that teachers had access to guns. My older son asked "what if that teacher got angry?" The younger boy said he would be scared if he didn't know the teacher, because "we wouldn't know if they were good or evil".
I wasn't going to comment on this thread, mostly because it's made me realise that American culture is in many respects so completely different to British culture that we may as well come from different planets, but I think this is one of the most important issues about what's happened ...
The majority of children feel safe, happy and secure at school. This is without the need for security guards and airport style scanners and armed teachers. And children have the right to feel safe in school; some children spend more time on school premises than they may spend in their own homes so the environment needs to support them in feeling safe, secure and happy. Arming members of staff or creating an environment which is too secure will scare many children. A life of fear and paranoia is not something any of us should want for children. Surely it could even cause problems further down the line as (for some) the fear and paranoia that is subcosciously drummed into them at an early age may manifest itself in adulthood?
This tragedy was so sad because it is so very VERY rare. And although it is no consolation for the families of those poor little angels, we should be thankful that none of us live in communities where this is everyday (or even every year) news. We cannot wrap our children in cotton wool on the basis that it might happen again, somewhere in the world, one day in the maybe distant future; they must have the opportunity and enjoyment to actually be children. Yes, we can learn to take precautions and try our best to prevent something like this happening but we shouldn't do it to the extent that we scare children.
:(
[As a sidenote, I am interested in seeing the statistics which show the UK has had an alleged increase in violent crimes since the gun/firearms legislation changed following our own tragedy at Dunblane in 1996, especially bearing in mind that the UK has NEVER had the gun culture that America has. I'm more inclined to believe that if violent crime statistics have risen it's purely because more people report them now (I suspect such crimes as domestic violence and rape are to be found within the realm of violent crime, but I may be mistaken).]
Dear Poppylicious,
There are actually several simple steps that schools could make happen quickly that would be essentially invisible to the kids themselves. In fact, that is the preferred manner in which to approach this issue. Israel handles things in a very direct manner without all of the PC that we have in America.
Despite the constant terrorist threats, one aspect of the Israeli school security plans are selected members who carry concealed. These people are not identified. Massad Ayoob, a well know firearms and police expert believes we should immediately implement the same steps that they have in Israel, Peru and the Philippines which have essentially eliminated mass killings in their schools. Here is his commentary.
http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/massadsurvey.htm
As far as increased gun crimes in the UK, that is according to government stats. Here is a report on the increasing danger from guns in the UK since the ban.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/12/11/gun-crime-soars-in-england-where-guns-are-banned-n1464528
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I didn't want to read this thread. It is too incredibly sad and unthinkable. Death and funerals should not happen with children. I was a teacher for 20 years. I am at my grandkids school 3 days a week. They have a good security system, but not much is going to stop a madman.
I don't understand the arguements here. Most posts are focusing on everything but simply mourning the loss of these innocent children. If you want to argue gun control, start a thread about it. But the anger between members regarding such a horrific act seems very childish. Everyone wants to be right. It isn't a contest. They are your opinions -- each are right or wrong.
Can we put the arguing aside, pull together as a group and give the respect these children deserve? Pray, send positive energy, weep for the families who are burying their children.
You don't know how much time this takes up with the admin team and rumor is, it won't take much more to close this down. Play nice. You are alive and can hug your children tonight.
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I didn't want to read this thread. It is too incredibly sad and unthinkable. Death and funerals happen with children. I was a teacher for 20 years. I am at my grandkids school 3 days a week. They have a good security system, but not much is going to stop a madman.
I don't understand the arguements here. Most posts are focusing on everything but simply mourning the loss of these innocent children. If you want to argue gun control, start a thread about it. But the anger between members regarding such a horrific act seems very childish. Everyone wants to be right. It isn't a contest. They are your opinions -- each are right or wrong.
Can we put the arguing aside, pull together as a group and give the respect these children deserve? Pray, send positive energy, weep for the families who are burying their children.
You don't know how much time this takes up with the admin team and rumor is, it won't take much more to close this down. Play nice. You are alive and can hug your children tonight.
Paris, you are a beautiful voice of reason! Thank you for your post, and for pointing out what this thread was really for from the beginning.
KarenInWA
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Gothic, it sounds like what we are thinking could or should be done, your school did it 10 years ago. Maybe there was still violence but the kids came out alive at the end of the day.
It was a pain in the ass too, but i agree, it probably did help... sadly, that was in place for the students, not for intruders. there wasnt there all day every day, just when we came in. they didnt trust us lol
I didn't want to read this thread. It is too incredibly sad and unthinkable. Death and funerals should not happen with children. I was a teacher for 20 years. I am at my grandkids school 3 days a week. They have a good security system, but not much is going to stop a madman.
I don't understand the arguements here. Most posts are focusing on everything but simply mourning the loss of these innocent children. If you want to argue gun control, start a thread about it. But the anger between members regarding such a horrific act seems very childish. Everyone wants to be right. It isn't a contest. They are your opinions -- each are right or wrong.
Can we put the arguing aside, pull together as a group and give the respect these children deserve? Pray, send positive energy, weep for the families who are burying their children.
You don't know how much time this takes up with the admin team and rumor is, it won't take much more to close this down. Play nice. You are alive and can hug your children tonight.
:cuddle; Thats exactly the point i tried to make way earlier in the thread, it was to no avail. some people just want to fight and argue no matter what. its unfortunate, and yes, very childish, but thats life i suppose.
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I don't understand the arguements here. Most posts are focusing on everything but simply mourning the loss of these innocent children. If you want to argue gun control, start a thread about it. But the anger between members regarding such a horrific act seems very childish. Everyone wants to be right. It isn't a contest. They are your opinions -- each are right or wrong.
Can we put the arguing aside, pull together as a group and give the respect these children deserve? Pray, send positive energy, weep for the families who are burying their children.
You don't know how much time this takes up with the admin team and rumor is, it won't take much more to close this down. Play nice. You are alive and can hug your children tonight.
While I respect the desire of "simply mourning" the children, I personally feel the need to do more than just sit in my chair and cry. As a parent of one of the murdered children said, I don't want these deaths to have no meaning at all. If we can mourn while at the same time take a good look at the elements that led to this tragedy and ones before it, then that's all the better.
The fact that we can hug our children tonight makes me want to make sure we can hug them tomorrow.
I personally do not want to fight and argue, but I deeply want to discuss where we as a society go next. This is how I am mourning. If others cannot discuss these issues without becoming unreasonable, well, there's not much I can do about that.
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Tuesday night, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer offered a proposition that could offer legislators in Washington, D.C. the chance to avoid a kneejerk reaction to last week’s shooting in Newton, CT.
Krauthammer’s hypothetical committee apparently would be different from the task force headed by Vice President Joe Biden in that it would be fashioned much like the 2002 9/11 Commission, which both then-President George W. Bush and Congress had a hand in establishing.
“There are people who want to use this as a partisan advantage or to scapegoat the NRA or to win over one side in this argument,” Krauthammer said. “I think one way to get around that in the passion of the moment is to do what Joe Lieberman suggested. To appoint a commission — this is not to put it off indefinitely — we had a commission after 9-11 because there is going to be a rush to judgment on this. I think it’s likely that we’re going to pass weapons laws that will be completely useless and I think it would be far better to appoint a commission to report in three months, six months, maybe Lieberman, maybe Giuliani to head it and to report and to look not just at guns, which is the only place where liberals want to look, but to look at the other two elements of any mass shooting.”
etc etc etc
I don't know if you saw President Obama's news conference this morning, but this is exactly what he said/did, although he has appointed the Vice President himself to head it up. The President talked about guns, mental health and the American culture of violence just as Mr. K did. That these two would agree on such an emotive issue is a Christmas miracle in and of itself. Maybe the deaths of these teachers and children will not have been in vain after all. It is up to us as a society to give their deaths a meaning. Amen.
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I don't understand the arguements here. Most posts are focusing on everything but simply mourning the loss of these innocent children. If you want to argue gun control, start a thread about it. But the anger between members regarding such a horrific act seems very childish. Everyone wants to be right. It isn't a contest. They are your opinions -- each are right or wrong.
Can we put the arguing aside, pull together as a group and give the respect these children deserve? Pray, send positive energy, weep for the families who are burying their children.
You don't know how much time this takes up with the admin team and rumor is, it won't take much more to close this down. Play nice. You are alive and can hug your children tonight.
While I respect the desire of "simply mourning" the children, I personally feel the need to do more than just sit in my chair and cry. As a parent of one of the murdered children said, I don't want these deaths to have no meaning at all. If we can mourn while at the same time take a good look at the elements that led to this tragedy and ones before it, then that's all the better.
The fact that we can hug our children tonight makes me want to make sure we can hug them tomorrow.
I personally do not want to fight and argue, but I deeply want to discuss where we as a society go next. This is how I am mourning. If others cannot discuss these issues without becoming unreasonable, well, there's not much I can do about that.
Well stated Moosemom. I may not always agree, but I do appreciate your attention to polite discourse.
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I simply stated that maybe it should be a new thread. The arguing/discussion does not respond to the original post. That was the day it happened and it shared the news.
The admins have to read every single post on this forum. It can be overwhelming. Members can pick and choose what they want to read, but to keep the forum running smoothly with little glitches, every post must have eyes on it. We are seeing the same people trying to convince each other who is right. It would be great to have a thread with suggestions about how to improve our children's security.
It is ok to take a moment and grieve with these families. We, right this moment, can do nothing but think of ideas. We all know everything has to go through channels.
I am grieving my husband, but the first weeks I could not change the system or be mad at the medical community. Honor and respect while these children are being buried is important.
But --- again, the thread becomes argumentative instead of helpful. Of course we all want this to end. I have 8 grands in school right now. I know how the schools are dealing with security in our city. I have my picture taken every time I visit, while I am logging onto a computer. This is after I have been admitted to the school.
So, start a new thread regarding gun control, security, locking down the schools, demanding teachers carry guns, but this thread was about the incident. Not how to solve this ongoing problem of mass shootings.
paris, Moderator
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Despite the constant terrorist threats, one aspect of the Israeli school security plans are selected members who carry concealed. These people are not identified. Massad Ayoob, a well know firearms and police expert believes we should immediately implement the same steps that they have in Israel, Peru and the Philippines which have essentially eliminated mass killings in their schools. Here is his commentary.
If I were a parent of a child in an elementary school, I would seriously consider what Mr. Ayoob proposed, namely having a trained, armed individual on patrol at the school, but I would NOT want that person to be my child's teacher. That teacher would have to have a weapon loaded and easily accessible at all times, and to have that in a classroom of young children just does not strike me as safe.
Perhaps, as had been an idea floated around, the National Guard can have a role here.
I do think that the parents of the children in schools should have a major input in whatever decisions are made.
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Paris, I understand your concern and despair of the time and effort it has taken the mods to read all of these posts. You of all people understand how discussions of all kinds can veer off course; this happens in "real life" as well as on IHD.
I agree that honoring these children while they are being buried is important, but I personally believe that while there is the national momentum to discuss these very important societal matters, we must seize the opportunity and not let our grief paralyze us and keep us from making our nation safer for our babies.
That's all I'll say on this particular topic because I can see this discussion already veering into territory of "what is the appropriate way to mourn these children?", and I REALLY don't want to go there!
Is there any way you or another mod can split this thread to make it more appropriate as you see fit? Is that possible? Thanks.
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Well stated Moosemom. I may not always agree, but I do appreciate your attention to polite discourse.
Thank you. I truly am interested in other peoples' opinions and why they feel the way they do, particularly and especially when they differ from my own. I am acutely aware that I don't know everything about everything and that other people may have insights that I had never considered.
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Then stop talking about Gun Control. It has nothing to do with this. Let's focus on the lost little first graders.
I volunteer for first grade once a week. I'm glad I don't have to go back for a couple of weeks. It is scary.
:bow;
Thank you Rerun! Several have tried to get this on track, but the bickering continues.
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If I get another complaint about this thread I will lock it.
I honestly cannot go through reading it all.
I have avoided the news because it's killing me to hear any more about those little angels that were murdered by a nut job.
If you all cannot find a way to discuss things without dragging the admins into it, you'll lose the option.
There are to be NO ad hominem attacks:
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
Got it? Good.
okarol/admin
Karol, I hope everyone read your request.
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Thank you Rerun! Several have tried to get this on track, but the bickering continues.
Paris, I've started another thread; it can be the "bicker thread". LOL! Would you consider moving some of the "bickering" posts from here to there as you see as appropriate? I really do want to be respectful to those who would prefer that this thread remain one in which they can mourn and post about their grief. Thank you. I am really sorry that this thread has been distressing to you, particularly at this time, so I think it is a very good idea to just start another thread. Thank you so much for the suggestion! :cuddle;
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Tuesday night, Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer offered a proposition that could offer legislators in Washington, D.C. the chance to avoid a kneejerk reaction to last week’s shooting in Newton, CT.
Krauthammer’s hypothetical committee apparently would be different from the task force headed by Vice President Joe Biden in that it would be fashioned much like the 2002 9/11 Commission, which both then-President George W. Bush and Congress had a hand in establishing.
“There are people who want to use this as a partisan advantage or to scapegoat the NRA or to win over one side in this argument,” Krauthammer said. “I think one way to get around that in the passion of the moment is to do what Joe Lieberman suggested. To appoint a commission — this is not to put it off indefinitely — we had a commission after 9-11 because there is going to be a rush to judgment on this. I think it’s likely that we’re going to pass weapons laws that will be completely useless and I think it would be far better to appoint a commission to report in three months, six months, maybe Lieberman, maybe Giuliani to head it and to report and to look not just at guns, which is the only place where liberals want to look, but to look at the other two elements of any mass shooting.”
etc etc etc
I don't know if you saw President Obama's news conference this morning, but this is exactly what he said/did, although he has appointed the Vice President himself to head it up. The President talked about guns, mental health and the American culture of violence just as Mr. K did. That these two would agree on such an emotive issue is a Christmas miracle in and of itself. Maybe the deaths of these teachers and children will not have been in vain after all. It is up to us as a society to give their deaths a meaning. Amen.
Dear Moosemom, we will have to wait and see how all of this turns out politically. One woman I went to college with won't be satisfied until we have gun confiscation in the US. Certainly, it appears that there will be a ban on high capacity ammo magazines. CA and other states already limit them to 10 and outlaw the 30 bullet magazines already. I have no problem with FFL required for all private sales since that is the system in CA already.
Those are certainly reasonable considerations, but how far will they go. Will they ban all "black rifles?" Will they ban all semi-automatic weapons?
There is one very simple fact, gun laws don't prevent criminals having guns, nor do they prevent these atrocities as Norway and Germany among others demonstrate. Will gun laws keep people from gaining access to illegal guns so declared? History says that the answer to that question is no.
The simple fact remains that the only way to approach monsters with guns already in action is to meet force with force. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. I can't imagine any law that will prevent the wrong people having access to guns. Nor does gun confiscation prevent murders as we have seen in Russia and other countries that have gone that route.
When I was in between my first and second year of medical school, a friend of mine got me a summer job at Boston State Mental Institution. Ironically, that is where my mother and father met. (Hang on, my mother was a nurse and my dad worked nights for room and board while he was going to grad school) That is closed now as are most inpatient mental hospitals. All of these shooters in the most recent incidents of mass shootings were known at risk individuals where the system did not get them the treatment they needed, nor protect innocent lives from their madness.
How the politics of this tragedy settles will in many ways define how safe our children will be in the future. Will we focus on the mental health failures, or will they instead continue with the anti-gun agenda that we have long expected from the Obama regimen? Time will tell, but I am skeptical that the nation will enact true security measures for all which includes responsible gun ownership.
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Hemodoc, would you mind moving/copying your last post over to the new thread that's been started? Thanks! I'll try to respond over there when I get the chance, but right now I have to go make dinner. Ugh. So not in the mood to cook...
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Hemodoc, would you mind moving/copying your last post over to the new thread that's been started? Thanks! I'll try to respond over there when I get the chance, but right now I have to go make dinner. Ugh. So not in the mood to cook...
Thank you.
THREAD LOCKED. Off-topic from original post.
okarol/adimn