I Hate Dialysis Message Board
Off-Topic => Off-Topic: Talk about anything you want. => Topic started by: Mimi on August 15, 2010, 11:53:54 PM
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This whole thing is disgusting. I go with the Britian.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html
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A mosque at ground zero? totally inappropriate but don't be taken in by Pat Condell's racist rhetoric. This video in typical Pat Condell fashion hi-jacks the single issue of a mosque at ground zero and uses it to justify his vicious anti Muslim diatribe. Unlike what he would have you believe, the majority of muslims in western communities are just as horrified about terrorists atrocities as the rest of us and do not deserve to be tarred with the same brush as the the evil terrorists who perpetrate them.
They want to live in peace and totally reject any notion of Jihad, Pat Condell exploits any kind of public opinion he can find which reinforces his racist agenda. People like him if the were ever in a time of crisis and social upheaval would make muslime comunities the scapegoats for all social and economical ills of the country. Just as Hitler did with the Jews.
Don't confuse cause with effect. Yes Americans are having their nose rubbed in it by the ground zero project being allowed to go ahead but the biggest mistake you can make is blaming muslims which is exactly what this video is designed to do. Instead blame the cause. Turn your anger on the people it public office who gave permission for it to go ahead in the first place.
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I remember the BBC news of 9/11 and a clip from Bradford in the UK, where it seemed the majority of muslims were dancing in the streets. The fact is, terrorist atrocities are still being carried out in the name of Islam, not any other religion.
You have to go back in history 1000 years before you see another religion terrorising — erm — Muslims. Christianity cleared out its crusading terrorists eventually; when Muslims clear their own religion of this stain, then perhaps, they would merit more tolerence.
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I agree with Ken. This is ugly, disgusting racism. I am surprised it took a Brit. We have plenty of these cretins running around our country.
Stoday, much as I respect your intelligence, you are looking at a very narrow view of terrorism, and I suspect you know this. I feel terrorized by any extremists - Fringey, supposedly Christian anti-abortion terrorists, that positively nauseating terrorist Fred Phelps who organizes anti-gay protests at the funerals of gay soldiers, the barking mad paranoids who think Obama is a Muslim, come direct from Kenya to seize their property and put them into 'FEMA labour camps' where we better have bought 'crisis seeds' (this is an actual product advertised on conservative television) or we will starve to death.
I only appreciate religion for its ability to get people through rough times. The rest of it belongs in the tip, in my opinion. I could see a Mosque at Ground Zero doing a lot of good. If you think that ordinary Muslims in this country don't feel marginalised and terrorized, then you have not been paying much attention. Foreigners in general feel terrorized. My first flight after September 11 - one month later - and I went to sit down and the first thing this 80-year-old man in the window-seat said to Gwyn and me was 'I don't look like it, but I'm American.' He was Japanese. Think about what could have possibly motivated this man to blurt this out to total strangers? Gwyn was not even a green-card holder at the time! He experienced no ill-effect from the attack because he is WHITE, whereas a Sikh was murdered after September 11 because one American terrorist was too stupid to know the difference. I tutored a Saudi girl in English in 2002 and she could not wear a black hijab anymore because of the fury in this country directed toward Muslims. I could go on and on, but I am going to stop myself there.
Mimi, could you please not post something anti-Obama in this section when we have a section (that I avoid) to do just that? I happen to be more excited about this president than any other in my lifetime, even Bill Clinton. He has accomplished what everyone else promised but no other president has managed - to address this health care nightmare in our country. I think every American with current or future health problems (all of us, in other words) owes him a huge measure of thanks.
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The site isn't on Ground Zero, but a couple of blocks away. There are also many "peep shows', adult stores, booking sites, etc in the 2 or 3 block area around Ground Zero. Freedom of religion. Our forefathers spelled it out for us. If you have ever been in New York City, you would see that something even a block away from the site would not effect anyone. I have been there many times pre and post 9/11 and can't tell you any one store, church, or business directly around that site. I can't blame an entire group of people for the sins of a very few. Just my :twocents; and I will slowly back away from this.
If this is a political discussion, it will be moved to the political thread so those who don't want to read it, can avoid it.
paris, Moderator
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The proposed mosque is a test of both America and Islam. If America lives up to its advertising, of not establishing or repressing any religion, it will allow the mosque to be built and it will be a symbol of American freedom and tolerance. The complete disconnect between the state and any form of religion is one of America's greatest strengths, and it should not be corrupted. Unsurprisingly, those most vocal in their condemnation of the proposed mosque also insist that Christianity deserves a greater role in the public square.
For Islam, the test is trickier. If it is business as usual within the masjid, it would expose Islam as insensitive and a willing tool of terrorists. In some way, the mosque must condemn the 9/11 plotters and their like, and honour the victims of senseless terror. The WTC destruction was a traumatic blow for all Americans, even those who submit to the Koranic faith, and a place of worship so close to ground zero cannot ignore the significance of its locale. Unlike the Catholic Church which built a convent at the edge of Aushwitz, I'm hoping American Moslems can distinguish respectful conduct from boorish behaviour.
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Caraid I did not post this thinking of Obama. I posted it thinking of the 3,000 people who died on 9/11
and their families.
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Mogee I think you have focused on what should be the real issue here, that of mutual respect for all religious beliefs and the sensitivities of their followers. Although In this instance I believe that to site a mosque in the close vicinity of ground zero is very insensitive to the memory of victims and the feelings of their families.
That and that only. I do not agree with it but I respect and defend their right to do it as in both Britain and the United States our right to religious and political freedom is enshrined by law and long may this be so.
I just can't understand the naivety of the powers that be who made this decision. It surely gave the jihad watch lunatics and Muslim bashers the excuse to make a racist issue about it.
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Thanks for posting this Mimi.
I think the man made much sense as do the vast majority of Americans who dont think this is the place to build a mosque.
Not sure what it has to do with Obama?
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Paul and Mimi, it says right at the top of the vid "The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War Against America" a statement that all who watch this video would be staring at for the full 6 minutes of Condell's off-the-rails diatribe. I'd love to know, Paul, where you get your data that tell you that "the vast majority of Americans" agree with you, as no one I know personally does in the least. Mimi, I'm sure you were thinking of the people that died on 9/11, what about the 80-90 of those who were Muslims? What about the thousands upon thousands of veterans who have experienced real war and would, if they are anything like me, take great offensive to having a presidency in a country famous for its 'checks and balances' compared to living under war. If you are going to call the Obama administration's actions acts of war, we may as well chuck the entire English language because that is sheer lunacy.
I don't hold 9/11 in such holy stead that the victims and their families should overtake all other considerations in this country, especially not THE FIRST AMENDMENT of our Constitution. What ideal world do you envision? An invisible barrier where no one who is Muslim is allowed to build within a certain zone in NYC? Where does it end? The terrorists were not attacking Christianity, nor even Judaism, they were attacking what they see as the seat of Western imperialism, which is why their targets tend to be politically and financially symbolic, and not religiously so.
I agree with Mogee in that it could become an inspiring symbol of tolerance. Not to say that it will, because these things can always be mucked up beyond recognition.
Thank you for your thoughts, Paris, especially this: I can't blame an entire group of people for the sins of a very few.
I was hoping that I was not the only one on IHD who felt this way.
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Firstly i didnt notice that bit about Obama until you pointed it out.
And where do i get my facts. From Democratic leader Reid. And polls taken by MSNBC CNN FOX. I know many liberals opps sorry progressives who dont agree with this mosque being built where it is. Not to mention there are over 1000 mosques in NY.
This tolerant person who wants to build bridges. How much of his reading and interviews have you read?
here is a snippet.
From Feisal Abdul Rauf--first a Little about Raul
He is the founder of park51 the so called ground zero cultural center.
This is a man who will not refuses to describe Hammas as a terrorist group although the state department consides them a terrorist group. Funny how the state department considers them a terrorist group. And it just so happens Rauf is the state departments own (Ambassador) to Islamic nations.
Needless in an interview with Hadielisam.com Rauf reveals his ultimate goals.
He wants to incrementally establish what he calls the original Islamic state worldwide as it once was in Arabia.
This consists of the principals of Sharia law IE Islamic law, which allows for the stoning death of adulterers and the decapitation of Muslims who convert to another faith
Now we debate among ourselves trying to persuade each other we arnt intolerant or anti-muslim. But those who would create more ground zeros are not debating. The think they have Allah on there side and MARTYRDOM and heaven is there goal.
Tell me how does one be them secular-christian-catholic or jewish negotiate with such a mind set??
At the dinner where obama stated he was for the mosque (in principal) was Saudi cleric Muhammad al-arifi Who last July 19th stated on al-rahma tv.
Devotion to Jihad for the sake of Allah and the desire to smash skulls and to sever limbs for the sake of Allah and in defense of his religion is undoubtedly an honor for the believer. Decleared the cleric.
Now i am sure this cleric will be at the new mosque to spread his word and wisdom to his fellow believers. many are OK with that right? And your OK with a radical cleric running the mosque because after all they are but misunderstood.
Needless he went on to say in his interview:
The Koranic versus that deal with fighting the infidels (that us westerners and Americans) and conquering there countires say that they should convert to Islam, pay thejizya poll tax or be KILLED. if the Muslims had implemented this we would not have reached the humiliation in which we find ourselves today.
This is reality not wishful thinking.
Dont get me wrong there are many MANY GOOD Muslims around the world. But lets not forget there are also many MANY jihads, militants who twist the word of the Koran for there own wicked goals.
Just so happens the ones who want the mosque built nest to ground zero are part of the bad guys. For if they were the good Muslims like the ones who died on 9/11 (not the hijackers) they would understand the sentiment behind so many people against building the mosque where the radical Iman and others mentioned above want it built. It is but to laugh at the infidels stupidity.
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Paul, you need to credit your sources, especially if you are going to do little more than paraphrase a Cal Thomas editorial from the Washington Examiner. Otherwise, we're in plagiarism territory.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Concerns-about-Ground-Zero-mosque-are-valid-499953-100808959.html
The Examiner, according to Wikipedia, was founded by its owner to offer "nothing but conservative columns and conservative op-ed writers". Need you really ask what Obama has to do with this? One of their writers wrote a book "The Case Against Barack Obama". Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me that you honestly believe that this has nothing to do with the conservative (The Party of Hell No, by their own admission) drive to defeat Obama at any cost, even the cost of their ethics and their sworn duty to govern this country. Oh, and I proudly wear the label liberal, so absolutely no need for cutesy, faux apologies. Call me a liberal to your heart's content, or a progressive, I identify as both. I secretly wish I were more liberal (well, not secretly anymore). Tolerance, especially when I disagree with someone over something fundamental to my life, is an art and I would love to be even more accomplished at it.
I don't think there is much doubt that Rauf is considered a moderate Muslim. How many of his writings have you read?
If you wanted to actually engage in a debate with me about this Islamic Centre, you would have done well to stray from the arch-conservative sphere to make your point. Apparently, the decidedly liberal Anti-Defamation League opposes this Mosque. This is far more interesting to me. I think most of us know before anyone opens their mouths who will fall on what side of these issues. The ADL was a surprise to me, and got my attention much more than the shameless liars on the extreme right, however, I believe the ADL was created to fight anti-semitism (an issue close to my heart if only for my relatives). I think this speaks more to the current state of Jewish/Islamic relations and in the end proves the need for structures/symbols/whatever the promote tolerance. I disagree with the ADL on this. I disagree with Harry Reid. I disagree with Barack Obama occasionally.
I could find no confirmation that that other cleric was at any dinner for the White House. Where did you read this? Where on earth did I write that I was OK with a radical cleric running any Mosque? I disagree with you that Rauf is a radical cleric. And the other cleric you mention, where is it stated that he would be running this?
I am trying not to "get you wrong" Paul, but you are making it difficult. I would like to say that I do completely respect your ability to leave debates behind and step up and support people on this site, regardless of political arguments, as we all battle renal failure. That is the essence of cool, at least in my estimation.
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There was nothing racist about the video.
Muslims as a whole have been silent about what happened on 9/11 as well as various other terrorist attacks on the US as well as other countries. There are a few that speak out against such stuff, but they are the exception, not the rule.
Also America does not have to let this building be built and it still lives up to its advertising of religious freedom.
America has long held one has rights, but they do not get to hide behind those rights.
Mormons religious views were they could marry more than one wife, when they came into the Union, the Mormon Church had to speak out against bigamy.
At no point does any rational person claim that America was suppressing religious freedom.
Just like when courts ruled that muslim women cannot wear a hijab in drivers license photos. Only the irrational claimed it was an suppression of religion.
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The complete disconnect between the state and any form of religion is one of America's greatest strengths
Erm — Take any dollar bill from your wallet and look on the reverse.
Fair comment concerning terrorism definition, cariad, I was aiming to juxtapose the Muslim and Christian religions. That terrorism was on a large international scale and I didn't want to cloud the argument by including minor acts such as that against Britain on the formation of Israel in the 1940's.
America is both a Christian and a tolerant country; I would hope it remains so. Islam is the antithesis of tolerance. The question is, will America's tolerance be enhanced by allowing the growing encroachment of an intolerant enclave? I think not; a truly tolerant America should excise pockets of intolerance.
Compare another religious group, Judism. Jews have integrated with society, are tolerant of other religions and pose no threat. Even in the days of terrorism against the British it would have been inconceivable to prevent them building a synagogue wherever they wanted in London. The difference between the acceptability of religious buildings between the two is tolerance.
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I would love to say in my heart of hearts, that not all Muslim people are extremists. The truth is, I hardly know anything about the religon. But I do know that building a Mosque at or near that site would incite a voilent backlash. I think we're still hurting deeply from what happend. Angry hearts find it hard to forgive. Personally I say no to it. I'm one that still has an angry heart. I'm sorry to say that but it's the truth. I can still the video of Bin Laden laughing as the towers went down. Racist? Maybe. Angry? Yes. I just hope that the people going into that Mosque aren't praying for another 9-11.
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Not being American, or Muslim (I don't consider myself Christian either, for that matter), perhaps I have no right to say anything, but I do have to point a few things out..
1. It's not a Mosque. It's a community center that just happens to be funded and run by an Imam. It's to have a culinary school, a basketball court, and a pool, and will be open to the public.
2. It's not at Ground Zero. It's one and a half blocks away, and you won't even be able to see it if you go to Ground Zero, unless you happen to wander away.
3. There is a church across the street from the Ground Zero site, and others in the same 1 and a half block radius of the Ground Zero site, so the argument that there shouldn't be any religious sites around the area doesn't hold water.
4. There is a Mosque at the Pentagon, where people also died on 9/11. Where are the protests for that Mosque? Why is it appropriate and this community center not appropriate?
If America was built on religious freedom and tolerance, I'm not seeing it now. It was Al-Qaeda who attacked the United States, not Islam. Al-Qaeda are extremists in the Muslim faith, the same as Fred Phelps and his "church" are extremists in the Christian faith.
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Cariad i did paraphrase because i agree with the points i pointed out. But im no plagiarist just a guy in a little debate which in all honesty i care less about. I just like to add my own thoughts and two cents in certain postings.
I read an article in my local paper that i re-looked at again today and yes it was written by carl thomas. Who i have never heard off until just now. I have stated this before and ill state it again. Anyone can find information to disagree with anyone else on the internet. It is a big back and forth. This is why i generally dont use quotes or cut and paste i just speak my mind. But again i thought the topic fit so i paraphrased.
You keep bringing Obama up? I havnt mentioned him (i dont think). I dont read books that are negatives about Obama. I have plenty of my own reasons for not liking Obama. But if i state them i am labeled a racist for some reason. You either agree with obama or your a racist some how. If anyhting i am an independent who follows my own heart and gut. I mean in all reality i didnt go to a racist church for 20 years and use a racist priest as a confident.
Things happen whether we like it or not. The mosque will be what it will be. Built or not built. The people voices generally are not heard needless if they are for or against any issue. The all mighty government does what it does. (not that this is a government issue)
I just dont think that is the right place to put up a Islamic center or mosque. IMO
But thank you for pointing out that many here can totaly disagree in many matters be it politics or any other issue. But when all the chips fall we are here for one common goal which is to help each other in our fight with ESRD. Many times people cant distinguish we are all different yet we can leave one thread and hold no ill feelings towards people we may disagree with in a different thread.
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Paul, just a few more things and then I really want to leave this discussion, because like you, it is not a big issue with me. I live nowhere near New York City, have no immediate plans to go there (I did live there for a year a long time ago and don't really like revisiting old times), and do not feel the deep connection toward the World Trade Center events that so many others do. Perhaps if it had happened in San Francisco (this was a concern for a brief time) or Wales, I would feel differently. I remember confiding in one of Gwyn's English friends that I did not feel I was at all involved in this and he replied "Oh, you're involved" as if ordering me to feel something that was not there. My heart breaks for anyone who had to go through those horrors, but I just cannot bring myself to see them as more sacrosanct than the tragedies that others live through. And that, of course, is only my personal feeling and one that I have never been able to articulate correctly.
You have mentioned Obama twice in this discussion - first by asking what he had to do with it (in response to my comment) and second in your paraphrasing (reread it). You wrote:
At the dinner where obama stated he was for the mosque (in principal) was Saudi cleric Muhammad al-arifi
Perhaps you can find "information to disagree with anyone else on the internet" but that is not technically information, just lies. A discussion with no good faith on the part of everyone involved that we will all strive for accuracy is pointless. Muhammad al-arifi was not at a dinner with Obama. I don't think he is even in America, but I cannot tell because there is very little information about him, just endless repetition of those quotes you posted. I really admire this president, as I stated, and I will defend him against outright falsehoods.
I respect anyone's rational disagreement with Obama, or just not liking someone for whatever reason - certainly a right I have exercised on many an occasion.
Stoday, your comments remind me of Christopher Hitchens. I have read a fair number of his essays concerning Islam (and Christianity - he dislikes both). He and Salman Rushdie believe that Islam is a perpetual danger to world peace, and some of their arguments are quite compelling. US Muslims tend to be very moderate, though. I'm sure if I were Salman Rushdie, I'd carry a grudge for life....
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Not being American, or Muslim (I don't consider myself Christian either, for that matter), perhaps I have no right to say anything, but I do have to point a few things out..
1. It's not a Mosque. It's a community center that just happens to be funded and run by an Imam. It's to have a culinary school, a basketball court, and a pool, and will be open to the public.
It certainly is a mosque in addition to the other uses listed. It is impossible to imagine an Islamic centre without a place of worship. Muslims are called to prayer five times daily and therefore require places of worship wherever they work, study and live. Although it will be "open to the public" it is doubtful that any non-Muslims will use the facility. The culinary school will teach the practices of halal and the pool will be for gender-exclusive use, one of the few places in Manhattan where Muslim women can swim.
One very odd aspect of this controversy is the silence from the Muslim community. At the very least I would expect the Cordoba group to state their position publicly and deny that they are erecting a victory marker where smoke and cinders once filled the street. If Americans are ever going to view Islam as anything other than a terror cult, Muslims must raise their voices and affirm their commitment to America's pluralistic and open society. The project developer's silence raises the suspicion that he believes, like so many other Muslims, that the attack on the WTC was America's just dessert.
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My son was just assigned to do a paper on propaganda for college. He chose this subject. He put it very bluntly to me. If you are against this being built you are not a good American. America is about freedom of religion. Not freedom of your religion. It is also about capitalism. They are going to spend a lot of money to have this built.
The piece of propaganda we chose to comment on is an ad ran by a group of Republicans in response to a mosque that is proposed to be built near Ground Zero. The video opens with the words “The Audacity of Jihad” with Middle Eastern style chanting, followed by footage of what appears to be guerilla forces training in the Middle East. It then shows the footage of the 9/11 attacks followed by pictures of dancing Muslims. The announcer says, “On September 11th they declared war against us, and to celebrate that murder of 3,000 Americans they want to build a monstrous 13 story mosque at ground zero.” The ad then shows a side by side of a man wrapped in an American flag and dancing Muslims. The announcer says, “Where we weep, they rejoice. That mosque is a monument to their victory-and an invitation for more [attacks].” The ad then shows a picture of President Obama and the white house followed by the words “The politicians are doing nothing to stop it, but we Americans will be heard.” The ad closes by asking the viewer to “Join the fight” to stop the mosque from being built.
This ad is a very good example of propaganda. This ad uses many emotional appeals to influence the audience. They use images such as the 9/11 attacks, the wreckage at Ground Zero and numerous American flags to try to appeal to American patriotism. They also try to use fear by showing depictions of armed Islamic terrorists and by saying that the mosque is an invitation for more attacks. This ad makes a couple of logical fallacies. The biggest one is suppressed info, because the ad does not mention anything reasonable about the opposing side and actually lies about their position throughout. This mosque is not located at ground zero but is actually about 2 blocks away. The ad also claims that the mosque is being built as a monument to Islamic victory when it is actually being used as a cultural outreach center, to show that not all Muslims follow the extremist viewpoints of the religion. A part-whole fallacy is used by assuming that every Muslim believes in the extremist interpretation of the religion and that they supported the attack that occurred on 9/11. There is also a slippery slope fallacy by assuming that all Muslims are responsible for and enjoyed the attacks on 9/11. This is not true at all of course, many American Muslims who lived in New York died in the attacks on 9/11. There is a false cause fallacy because the ad assumes that because the mosque is being built near ground zero, it is supposed to be a symbol of victory over America. Appeal to pity is used by saying that the people in charge are doing nothing to prevent this mosque from being built, making the people who oppose it the underdogs. We also believe that put-downs are being used because whenever the opposition was talked about there would be pictures of terrorists shown. This is basically calling the people who plan to build the mosque Muslim terrorists. Overall this ad is a perfect example of propaganda because it tries to use emotional appeals and fallacious arguments to turn public opinion against the building of this mosque.
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After 9/11, a group of Muslims who had a Mosque in NYC near the WTC, and were there before the WTC was even built, were evicted from their building. Where they worship now is not big enough for them. There will be prayer space in this community center, but calling it a mosque would be the same as calling a hospital a church because it has a chapel in it.
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There is a prayer room in the Pentagon for the Muslims. Why aren't people outraged about that? Help me --- I jumped back into this conversation! I am leaving now. :2thumbsup;
YLGuy, you have raised an incredible son. He seems to be informed and open minded. He is right about being a good American.
One more note, we have Muslims friends and they do not associate their religion with the terriosts religion. Their wish is that others could see there is a huge difference. I was talking with a girl today from Pakistan. I keep trying to learn all I can about other religions so I can base my feelings on facts not fear.
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Not being American, or Muslim (I don't consider myself Christian either, for that matter), perhaps I have no right to say anything, but I do have to point a few things out..
4. There is a Mosque at the Pentagon, where people also died on 9/11. Where are the protests for that Mosque? Why is it appropriate and this community center not appropriate?
Sorry there is no Mosque at the Pentagon, that was a fabrication by a Salon writer in the title of an article that has been hyped ever since.
This is all being done under the idea of a stealth jihad.
They get people to side with them under the guise of they are doing nothing wrong and that Islam is a peaceful religion. The idea of it being peaceful holds true mainly only to those Muslims that are Westernized and those that come here and consider this their country and hold allegiance to it.
While there are a number of Muslims in the US that are Westernized and indeed believe in live and let live, many of the Muslims in this country are not westernized and in fact hold more allegiance to their homelands than they do to the US. You even have a number of Muslims that were born here but hold the US in contempt and they have more allegiance to their parents homeland. Many of these types sympathize with the terrorists groups much in the same way that Neo Nazi groups sympathize with Hitler, except in this case instead of being very much vocal like Neo Nazi groups, they are silent and funnel money back to these terrorist groups.
The idea of this type of jihad is to destroy the US and western countries from within.
Their goal is to get sharia law in the US and other countries.
It starts by them claiming they need accommodations for their religion. ex. Muslim women should get to wear their hijab in schools or in drivers license pictures or at places of employment.
Even most recently a school in Michigan changed football practice to 11pm to 4 am so Muslims could follow Ramadan. This is clearly a violation of the Separation of Church and State clause of the Constitution.
Groups like the ACLU and other liberal groups howl like stuck pigs when Christians try to have a prayer before games and such, but they remain silent on this issue of government endorsement of a religion in this case.
All done in the name of them straining trying to be pc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B1FHeIP53Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5BPVF1C5LE
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The ad also claims that the mosque is being built as a monument to Islamic victory when it is actually being used as a cultural outreach center, to show that not all Muslims follow the extremist viewpoints of the religion.
Are you making this up or do you actually have a public statement from the Cordoba group to justify your assertion? Muslims are not interested in "cultural outreach". If they were, they would have issued a clear and unequivocal statement long before this matter gathered national attention. In my opinion, the Muslims who are most devout are likeliest to regard America as the great Satan and have contempt for western values. Muslims who defend our open society, authors like Irshad Manji and Tarek Fatah are denounced as apostates and subject to harassment and threats of death. Islam, in addition to being an expression of faith and spirituality, is a complete code of living meant to closely govern individuals, communities and nations. It is fundamentally at loggerheads with the American values of personal autonomy, official secularism and liaise faire liberalism. America may be strong enough, brave enough and fair enough to embrace Muslims as fully enfranchised citizens, but Islam will never respect or tolerate American values.
It is always worthwhile to expose propaganda and rhetoric for the illusions they convey and the base motives behind them, but YLGuy has perpetrated a fallacy of his own; he has dismissed the fact that Islamic and American values are fundamentally incompatible.
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Do you know any Muslims? or are you just listening to the crap that is being spewed by those trying to destract Americans from the real issues that the country faces, like the economy.
Where I live, there is a large Lebanese community. Many are Christian, and came here fleeing religious persecution. However, there are also many Muslims who have come here as well. What is amazing, is that those who would kill each other in Lebanon because of their religions come together here, every year, and throw a great big friggin party with lots of Lebanese food and belly dancers. The Christian and Muslim Lebanese get along. Says very little for Americans.
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You might not like the opinion of some individuals- just don't knock us as a country. Americans are a great people, who have shown compassion thousands of times to people in need.
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According to CNN tonight the Mouque is already there and open.
It showed pictures of Muslims praying inside and also of Muslims coming out of the building.
Considering, Riki, that you are not a member of any faith I don't know why you are commenting. Yesterday it was announced that Pakistan was only getting flood help from only 2 countries. One of them is the U. S. A.
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I hold an American passport but consider myself a citizen of the world in the sense that I find it important to consider things from multiple perspectives. I'm also old enough to realize that pretty much nothing is all black or all white. I don't discuss religion much since it seems to create misunderstanding far more than lead to mutual understanding. Since I don't live in the US, although almost all my family members do, I'll contribute this article by Dick Cavett to the discussion here.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/20/real-americans-please-stand-up/
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If two blocks from Ground Zero is too close, how many blocks is acceptable?
Five, ten, twenty blocks from Ground Zero?
8)
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Yesterday it was announced that Pakistan was only getting flood help from only 2 countries. One of them is the U. S. A.
The USA, France, Germany, Sweden, Japan, China, Australia, the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Italy, India ... that's more than two countries who have provided aid (and there are obviously more, but that was a quick two minute Google search and I don't have time to do more searching ;D).
I'm also old enough to realize that pretty much nothing is all black or all white. I don't discuss religion much since it seems to create misunderstanding far more than lead to mutual understanding.
Me too, which is why I'm ducking out of this thread as quickly as I ducked in ...
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Considering, Riki, that you are not a member of any faith I don't know why you are commenting.
What does it matter that I don't follow a faith? I'm not an Athiest or Agnostic. I believe in God. I believe in one God, and that every religion sees Him in a different way. I just don't follow a religion. I find all their ritiual too much like a cut, and I grew up Catholic, so I know ritual.
The people who wish to build this have a constitutional right to build wherever they want. It's private land. It's 2 blocks away from one corner of the Ground Zero site. It's not like it's going to loom over or anything. Heck, it's only going to be 15 floors. That's nothing in NYC. It's going to be just another building. A community center. It just happens to be run by Muslims. Big deal.
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Considering, Riki, that you are not a member of any faith I don't know why you are commenting.
This is a really sinister comment. Since when do we have to be of a particular faith to voice opinions about anything on IHD? If you don't like contrary opinions, then don't start discussions about highly political subjects! You don't like someone's opinion so you try to silence them by insinuating that they have no right to join a discussion?!
By the way, there is indeed a Muslim "prayer room" at the pentagon, same as there is to be a Muslim "prayer room" in the Muslim community centre that will replace the mosque or community centre that is already there. (I have no idea which and I don't care!) Unless ABC news is also making things up.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mosque-controversy-skips-pentagon-muslims-gather-911-crash/story?id=11417673
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A quick google search will show pictures and articles of the prayer room in the Pentagon. Just feet away from where the plane crashed. It is open to all religions. At appropriate times, the prayer rugs are placed on the floor, the speaker podium moved so the people praying will face East. Lots of interesting articles for both sides of the discussion. Oh, and there are prayer rooms at all the military academies.
Since I am a big theater person, I would love for people to listen to a song from South Pacific. "You have to be carefully taught" It reminds us that we aren't born to hate, we are taught it at an early age and it is continually reinforced. Hate has always been in our world. We don't like people who talk different, look different, dress different. But we are who we are because of where we were born and who we grew up with. I really don't think Christ intended to have a religion in His name that is full of hate. I think He wanted us to be more like Him and love and accept everyone. My personal opinion is there is one wonderful God and we call him many names. My intention is not to change anyone's opinions, but if I believe in Jesus, then I need to live a Christ-like life and love my neighbor. Please tell me why I keep reading this thread? Oh yeah-- I am a mod and that is my job. I just need to learn to not respond!! LOL
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I agree they have every right in our free country to have a prayer room/mosque/ whatever wherever they legally own the right to build a building.
HOWEVER, when so many Americans are upset by it- how does building that building right there, build relationships and bridges with their fellow Americans? ITs so upsetting to so many people- why can't they see that building it somewhere else would make a powerful statement to appease the feelings of the very people that are upset. Its not FORCING them to do it- just them being tolerant of peoples feelings. Why do they get a free pass to be insensitive?
I know our constitution lets them have all the freedoms of any other religion, and I support that 100%.
But they are knowingly being insensitive. and dont seem to care.
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The people who wish to build this have a constitutional right to build wherever they want. It's private land. It's 2 blocks away from one corner of the Ground Zero site. It's not like it's going to loom over or anything. Heck, it's only going to be 15 floors. That's nothing in NYC. It's going to be just another building. A community center. It just happens to be run by Muslims. Big deal.
There is a Constitutional right to freedom of religion, not a Constitutional Right to build a building wherever anyone wants. If it was a Constitutional Right, all zoning codes would be invalid.
If Neo Nazis were trying to build a religious facility within the vicinity of the Holocaust Memorial, just as big of a uproar would occur.
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Yesterday it was announced that Pakistan was only getting flood help from only 2 countries. One of them is the U. S. A.
The USA, France, Germany, Sweden, Japan, China, Australia, the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Italy, India ... that's more than two countries who have provided aid (and there are obviously more, but that was a quick two minute Google search and I don't have time to do more searching ;D).
I'm also old enough to realize that pretty much nothing is all black or all white. I don't discuss religion much since it seems to create misunderstanding far more than lead to mutual understanding.
Me too, which is why I'm ducking out of this thread as quickly as I ducked in ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/aug/09/pakistan-flood-aid#data
Take a look at this. Most of the countries have not lived up to their pledges
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Big Sky...you made a horrible comparison. Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof. It is not a religion. You are blurring the lines between religion and political movements.
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Muslims are not a tolerent people. If they were they would have known Americans would be upset and angry. I agree Paris that
we all need to be more Christ like. But all through the Bible there were wars brought on by God himself to destroy the evill enemy and
people worshiping other gods.
No Caraid It is not a sinister comment. It is the same thing Riiki
herself said on her first post. "not being an american or muslim (I don't consider myself a Christian either for that matter) perhaps I have no right to say anything.
Mogee I agree with you whole heartedly. YLGuy you say that not all
muslims follow the extremeist viewpoints. However the Koran is their bible
and it says, according to Mohammed, that all infidels must die. They worship a God callled Alllah, who is not my God. My God is the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son,
and God the Holy Spirit.
Oh and by the way Cariad I am not trying to silence anyone and I am not insinuating anything. Maybe you should start at the beginning and read what other folks think.
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Muslims are not a tolerent people.
That is simply untrue.
1.5 Billion people, only a small proportion of whom are of Middle Eastern origin, and only a tiny fraction of those involved in Radical Islam and terrorism, yet you condemn each and every one of them as intolerant based on their religious beliefs. (In case you need reminding, you stated, "Muslims are not a tolerent people.") If it were not so sad, such a patently ridiculous viewpoint would be laughable.
I am given to wonder just who it is, that is displaying the greater intolerance.
Thank you for saying this, Henry. I could not agree more. (Hope you don't mind that I compressed your quote so much.) I could argue that Christians are intolerant if I based my views solely on the few wackos who murder doctors and protest at the funerals of dead soldiers. My kids play with Muslim children at school, are invited to their birthday parties, invite them to theirs. I audited an Arabic class several years ago and the teacher (actually the university librarian, but it is really difficult to find Arabic professors) was Libyan. He warned everyone that he would be pretty grouchy during Ramadan because they are supposed to cut out caffeine, but I never noticed. Timothy McVeigh (OK City bombing) was a veteran. So clearly we should ban all veteran centers from the vicinity.
Mimi, I have read what others think, both in this discussion and throughout the site. I was hesitant to join this site as an atheist (I read off and on for years before joining) but then I found an old post by Epoman in which he stated that there was a member who was a satanist who had been welcomed here and that was all I needed to read. There is a difference between someone questioning whether they have a stake in this discussion, and you hinting that they should not be commenting. I think that's rather obvious. Perhaps it is you that needs to do the reading. It was most certainly sinister. And I know we have/had members who are Muslim on IHD. How do you think they feel reading your comments and prejudices?
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As Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
8)
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Big Sky...you made a horrible comparison. Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof. It is not a religion. You are blurring the lines between religion and political movements.
Actually the comparison is quite accurate.
It doesnt matter if one is a religion or one is a political movement. They both have basis in the first amendment.
The fact remains if they were to build a church, prayer facility, community center where I suggested the uproar would be the same.
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Before my illness, I worked in the majority of the countries in HPS's list (Pakistan, India and Turkey) and in Lebanon, which has also been mentioned. I have found the Muslims in these countries to be every bit as friendly as cariad and HPS suggest. Indeed, I have accepted invitations to eat in peoples homes in three of the countries.
The way in which Islam is interpreted and practiced varies significantly from country to country. I found (in the countries I've worked in) Lebanon to be the most tolerant, Pakistan the least. By tolerance here I mean tolerance of the supposed diktats of Islam. Alcohol is more or less tolerated; women are more or less segregated and so on.
It seems to be the less tolerant and more extreme fanatics who become indoctrinated mostly in the middle east where Islam is interpreted most strictly become terrorists and suicide bombers. They may be a minority, but they taint Islam with their intolerance. What are the majority of Muslims doing about it? Not a lot it seems Why no fatwas against Bin Laden? What remains in my mind is the jubilation of Muslims in Bradford (UK) when they heard of 9/11.
Yes, the majority of Muslims are tolerant to other religions (but not to women), so much so that they tolerate intolerance among their members. Thus Islam as a whole becomes intolerant.
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This is all very sad. We live with such fear. Each generation there is another group to hate and fear. I sat in church today thinking about this thread. All I could think is that at the end of my life, when I meet my Maker, I hope I got it right by being accepting, willing to learn, and not judging. I will get back to you on that some day!! Everyone has an opinion, but we really don't know who has it right or wrong. We have been carefully taught by those around us to learn who to fear or hate. Sad, sad.
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Fear and hate play a very small role in this issue if really any.
Its basis is in the lack of trust Muslims have achieved in this country because of their actions.
Cartoonists depict Mohammad and Muslim terrorists issue death threats. What do ordinary Muslims do? They do not protest the terrorists in their own ranks of religion over the matter, they go out and protest the cartoonists.
Muslims are complacent to the growing terrorists in their ranks. Muslims as a whole do not speak out against terrorist attacks, by their inaction in the matter they are condoning such attacks. It is the exception to see Muslims speak out against such attacks.
What is the result of this complacency? You are not trusted and rightly so.
Muslims blame the US for Muslim death even though we bear no responsibility.
Saddam signed a cease fire agreement. If he failed to abide by the cease fire, sanctions would be put in place or the war could resume. Under these sanctions money was to go to the needs of the Iraqi people. Saddam turned around and diverted nearly all this money to himself and his party and much of the aid that was received was diverted to the black market for cash which was directed to Saddam.
As a result of this hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died. Saddam was to blame for these deaths, yet many Muslims blame the US for these deaths because of the sanctions.
The same blame goes with Afghanistan.
The US as policy does not deliberately try to kill innocent civilians. Al-Qaeda and other Muslim terrorist groups DELIBERATELY attack and kill Muslims and others.
Do Muslims protest them? No they protest about the US who may have killed Muslims on accident. Even now they blame us for all the deaths of Muslims despite even if they did not occur at our hands.
Ever wonder why there is only something like 5 Muslim nations in Afghanistan? Out of those Turkey has the most troops there because it is a secular nation, the rest of the Muslim nations that are there have either State Religions or are Islamic States and they account for something like 500 troops.
Hamas attacks Israel, Israel responds with force. What happens, Muslims protest Israel instead of Hamas who committed the terrorist attacks.
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Are you an American?
Thomas Jefferson, proclaimed:
"[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
The Fourteenth Amendment
The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees the religious civil rights.[8] Whereas the First Amendment secures the free exercise of religion, section one of the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion, by securing "the equal protection of the laws" for every person:
“ All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
This is about freedom of religion. NOT freedom of your religion. My son put it best: If you are against this being built then you are NOT a good American.
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but is it a good idea? Just because something is legal to do- does not make it a wise choice. If they are going to try to build bridges with people who are not muslims- then why do something that alienates so many?
And where is the public outcry from muslims when extremeists do something? Why is it okay for the mass majority of muslims who you say are peaceful- to say/do nothing?
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Sorry but I have yet to see anyone even claim freedom of religion applies only to their religion. Its disingenuous to even suggest such a thing as you have done.
As to your sons statement, that is false logic.
By that logic we should also honor Islamic honor killings or support that Mormons should be able to once again have more than wife without it being illegal.
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No fear or hate? Then maybe ignorance or unwillingness to research and seek higher knowledge? I know I don't have the answers, so I go to any scholar, theologian, professor, teacher, book, etc that I can find to learn more to be able to have a well rounded opinion. To have a round table conversation with a Rabbi, a Minister, a Priest, an Imam and others who believe in a higher power, and some who believe in nothing -- those are the moments I can see what we have in common. I am very fortunate to live in a diverse community and am surrounded by friends and family of almost all faiths. It helps me be a citizen of the world and not just my corner of the world. Also, acceptance does not mean condoning the radical terrorists. But, I can seperate the radicals from the majority.
Again, when I face God, I can only hope I got this right. There won't be a second chance!
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It is a Community Center that has a couple of floors dedicated to prayer 2 blocks from Ground Zero! IT IS NOT ON Ground Zero. Get over it.
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It is a Community Center that has a couple of floors dedicated to prayer 2 blocks from Ground Zero! IT IS NOT ON Ground Zero. Get over it.
I cant 'get over' it being a bad idea that just creates distance between muslims and non-muslims.
I can't 'get over' the lack of mainstream muslim outcry when extremeists act- one or two stand up-where are the millions that are supposedly against it? Why are they silent? And why are you okay with that?
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To everyone:
The ideas here are from differing points of view, and I am glad we can have discussions.
If your goal is to persuade people to change their minds on political issues here on a kidney forum, you may be wasting your time and alienating members.
That being said, I appreciate your discretion and maturity.
If this gets too much like bickering I am inclined to lock the thread.
okarol/admin
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It is a Community Center that has a couple of floors dedicated to prayer 2 blocks from Ground Zero! IT IS NOT ON Ground Zero. Get over it.
Well if that is the case that its a community center, the claims are false as to protection because of religion.
No fear or hate? Then maybe ignorance or unwillingness to research and seek higher knowledge?
More like distrust because of the lack by Muslims to weed out and speak out as a whole against the terrorists and the terrorist sympathizers within the ranks of Islam.
The vast majority of terrorist attacks in the past 15 years are the result of Muslim terrorists. As such it is up to the Muslim community to be front and center time and time again speaking out as A WHOLE against these people and it is up to them to be at the front in weeding these people out of their ranks. The problem is that its just not happening.
This is why people have so much distrust.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG1DYuzVgSk&NR=1
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I've only come back to read this thread because a complaint was made regarding some of the content.
Karol has already made a comment, so I make the following comment WITHOUT a moderator's hat on:
I find some of the comments made in this thread to be so generalised as to be meaningless. It's very easy to tar a race of people with one brush(eg: "Yes, the majority of Muslims are tolerant to other religions (but not to women)"), but it's simply not fair. It's like saying "All Americans are fat" - clearly untrue and offensive. I think Henry's post was vary fair, as have been Cariad's.
Sometimes, when you're too close emotionally to something it's more difficult to put things into proper perspective (not saying that I'm easily able to do this either!)
I don't really think that this forum (even though this is in the off topic area) is the place for such debates. We all know how issues relating to politics and religion usually end up mired in almost everyone getting upset or offended in some manner by the end of it.
Again, this is just my opinion, and not written as a moderator.
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If two blocks from Ground Zero is too close, how many blocks is acceptable?
Five, ten, twenty blocks from Ground Zero?
8)
:-*
Thank you Zach
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If two blocks from Ground Zero is too close, how many blocks is acceptable?
Five, ten, twenty blocks from Ground Zero?
8)
How about the same distance it is acceptable to build a Christian Church at Mecca, from the Masjid al-Haram?
:)
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how many blocks is acceptable?
Five, ten, twenty blocks from Ground Zero?
Thank you Zach
I have not thought of it in blocks. Hmmmm maybe China, but I don't know how many blocks that is or Mexico, mabe that would take care of Arizona, too. Yes Mexico, that's it. :rofl; :rofl; :rofl;
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The Fourteenth Amendment
The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees the religious civil rights.[8] Whereas the First Amendment secures the free exercise of religion, section one of the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits discrimination, including on the basis of religion, by securing "the equal protection of the laws" for every person:
“ All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
This is about freedom of religion. NOT freedom of your religion. My son put it best: If you are against this being built then you are NOT a good American.
There is nothing in the constitution requiring individuals to treat all religions alike or treat all categories of people equally. If the community centre is not built because Americans have howled in protest, and those protests are respected by the developer, no privilege or immunity was abridged. YLGuy, your son should recognize that the Constitution is a document which constrains the government, not the citizens, of the U.S. Taking a position against a Mosque is no less American than establishing a church in your own community.
I'm familiar with the fourteenth amendment and the concept of incorporation. I've read about a dozen Supreme Court decisions considering the provision, all from the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. There is no connection between the amendment and any of the issues raised here. YLGuy, does your son generally believe that Good Americans are those who live within the constraints imposed by the constitution on government?
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but is it a good idea? Just because something is legal to do- does not make it a wise choice. If they are going to try to build bridges with people who are not muslims- then why do something that alienates so many?
And where is the public outcry from muslims when extremeists do something? Why is it okay for the mass majority of muslims who you say are peaceful- to say/do nothing?
Glitter, as the saying goes 'Evil prospers when good men do nothing' many moderate muslims are fearful of showing any kind of opposition to the radicals and so remain silent. This unfortunately is a a human characteristic. It happened in Nazi Germany. The atrocities of Hitler's Third Riech went ahead whilst the populace remained silent.
Throughout history there are many examples where fanatical extremists hijack religious and political movements for their own ends and any opposition from within is met with extreme punishments.
The perceived lack of protest from muslim comunities cannot be acceptable as evidence of collaboration
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It was fortunate that in 1941, after Hitler had waged war for a couple of years, America decided it would no longer tolerate Nazis.
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It was fortunate that in 1941, after Hitler had waged war for a couple of years, America decided it would no longer tolerate Nazis.
I don't know why, but this struck me funny
Have to wonder, though.. if Japan hadn't attack Pearl Harbour, would the US have taken part in WW2 at all?
A lot of Americans, before the US entered the war, didn't think about Hitler that much, some even agreed with his views. One in particular, Henry Ford (who is actually idolized in my house), liked Hitler, because of his views of Jews. It wasn't until after he learned what Hitler was doing to the Jews that his opinion changed.
yeah. totally unrelated.. I'll shut up now
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It was fortunate that in 1941, after Hitler had waged war for a couple of years, America decided it would no longer tolerate Nazis.
The US only declared war on Japan (After Pearl Harbour.) Germany subsequently declared war on the US as part of its obligations under the Tripartite Act between Germany, Italy and Japan.
One can only speculate when or even if the US may have declared war on Germany in the absence of Germany's declaration of war. In spite of the enormous logistical support that the US was providing in increasing volumes to the Allies, it showed no sign of entering the war until Pearl Harbour and even then, only declared war on Japan. The US became involved against Germany because of Germany's declaration of war against the US, not because it decided it would no longer tolerate the Nazis. Some historians see it as a huge blunder by Hitler.
Me, I'm thankful that it happened. The free world ought never forget that without US commitment in both theatres, Europe and the Pacific, both Germany and Japan both would almost certainly prevailed in their ambitions.
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I am also thankful Henry. What is the old saying, if you can read this, thank a teacher, if you can read it in English, thank a soldier.
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A new Catholic church is being built near our neighborhood, and I personally am vehemently opposed to it because we all know that Catholic priests are nothing but paedophiles or their apologists............
It is irrelevant whether or not a church is allowed to be built in Mecca. This is not Saudi Arabia, rather, this is America, and to compare our tradition of religious tolerance to theirs of the exact opposite is pointless and even offensive.
If this mosque/cultural center is in fact built in Manhattan, I would suspect that it will be the most government watched property in the country. If it does become a hotbed of Muslim fanatacism and the cradle of terrorism, that would point to gross negligence and ineptitude from our intelligence services. I would hope that the NSA/FBI/Homeland Security would not be that moronic.
Ground Zero is not "sacred ground"; if it were, there would not have been the unseemly squabbling surrounding how to use that site.
The People of New York elected officials to represent them. Those officials voted 9-0 to allow that site to be used at the owners's discretion. Ergo, the people have, in fact, spoken according to our democratic tradition.
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Oh, and we all know that Catholics are intolerant of women, too. Why do some Christians allow women to teach men but Catholics do not? This new church is just going to become yet another hotbed of anti-women practices...
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It is just so sad that there are still so many closed minded people with so much hate.
I am done with this thread.
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(I just wanted to make a point about the dangers of extrapolating...)
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It is irrelevant whether or not a church is allowed to be built in Mecca. This is not Saudi Arabia, rather, this is America, and to compare our tradition of religious tolerance to theirs of the exact opposite is pointless and even offensive.
Actually its very much relevant that a Christian church is not allowed to built near the Masjid al-Haram. It shows how Islam truly feels about others religions.
Oh, and we all know that Catholics are intolerant of women, too. Why do some Christians allow women to teach men but Catholics do not? This new church is just going to become yet another hotbed of anti-women practices...
Hmm you complain about Catholics not letting women teach, but yet you defend a religion that commits honor killings. Interesting.
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Some years ago we caught a Catholic terrorist trying to blow up the English parliament.
Every year since then, not just every town, not just every villiage but every neighbourhood in England has built a bonfire on 11/5 and thrown an effigy of the terrorist on it. That reminds Catholics to behave. Seems to have worked too. :laugh:
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No religion commits honor killings. Those atrocities are committed by cultures, not by religions. Islam encompasses many different cultures, and the same can be said about Hinduism and Christianity and Judaism. The way that Christianity is practiced in Alabama is very different than the way it is practiced in, say, Mexico. Unfortunately, there are many cultures that practice abominable behaviour toward women. Where have I "defended" any religion? In my mind, religion is different from faith. "Religion" is a manmade construct. Of all the "Christian" cultures, only the US condones and actively pursues capital punishment. How does the American Christian defend this practice to, day, a European Christian? You see, these things are often CULTURALLY driven.
I still maintain that it is irrelevant what happens in Saudi Arabia. I don't care that they are intolerant. But it is illogical to extrapolate that because Wahabism is practiced by Muslims in one country, it is practiced by all Muslims in America and ergo all Muslims are intolerant. Such sweeping generalizations are worrisome and do not show Americans in a good light. Instead of caring so much about how Saudis don't like churches, maybe we should concentrate on maintaining our own American traditions of religious tolerance.
This is the sort of topic on which no one will ever change his/her mind, so I will bow out now that I've given my humble opinion! :rofl; May God bless us all and help us to all treat each other with respect and love.
Stoday, I know all about Guy Fawkes Night...I've attended many a bonfire. Too bad the Catholic hierarchy didn't get the reminder to "behave". I wonder how many British yoofs even know the origins of that particular "celebration".
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No religion commits honor killings. Those atrocities are committed by cultures, not by religions. Islam encompasses many different cultures, and the same can be said about Hinduism and Christianity and Judaism. The way that Christianity is practiced in Alabama is very different than the way it is practiced in, say, Mexico. Unfortunately, there are many cultures that practice abominable behaviour toward women. Where have I "defended" any religion? In my mind, religion is different from faith. "Religion" is a manmade construct. Of all the "Christian" cultures, only the US condones and actively pursues capital punishment. How does the American Christian defend this practice to, day, a European Christian? You see, these things are often CULTURALLY driven.
Except the one key thing in all of them are the people are Muslim, it would seem to indicate its a bit more than culture.
Capital Punishment?
Its pretty simple to understand the view.
Those given capital punishment are people that are convicted of a heinous crime, most notably its murder by a jury of their peers.
If you really wanted to complain about something, it should be the killing of INNOCENT children through abortion, not about someone who has committed murder and been convicted by a jury of their peers and sentenced for their crime.
I still maintain that it is irrelevant what happens in Saudi Arabia. I don't care that they are intolerant. But it is illogical to extrapolate that because Wahabism is practiced by Muslims in one country, it is practiced by all Muslims in America and ergo all Muslims are intolerant. Such sweeping generalizations are worrisome and do not show Americans in a good light. Instead of caring so much about how Saudis don't like churches, maybe we should concentrate on maintaining our own American traditions of religious tolerance.
When I generalize, its the generalization that the community does not take enough action against the terrorists and their sympathizers withing the ranks of Islam.
Actually this thing of generalizing that all Muslims are "Westernized" is far more disturbing. Despite what Obama claimed about the US being one of the biggest Muslims countries, we are not. Of the top 50 Muslim countries, the US is 48th.
Also that view against other religions goes far past just "one country".
Just a handful of views in other Muslim countries on other religions.
Saudi Arabia – Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-Muslim to enter the “holy” Muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.
Yemen – Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.
Kuwait – Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam.
Egypt –Religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith. Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship.
Algeria – The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution. The country has passed the “Regulation of Religious Practice” law, which stipulates a punishment of two to five years’ imprisonment and heavy fines for anyone convicted of urging a Muslim to change his religion.
Syria – The constitution requires the president to be a Muslim and specifies that Islamic jurisprudence is a principal source of legislation. Sharing your Christian faith is discouraged as “posing a threat to the relations among religious groups” and carries a penalty of up to life in prison. A Christian is not allowed to proselytize – ever.
Sudan – Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death.
Pakistan – Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims. Christians regularly put in prison for charges of blasphemy.
Qatar The government continues to prohibit proselytizing of Muslims by non-Muslims.
Malaysia –Apostasy or conversion out of Islam is punishable by whipping, fines, imprisonment and—in the most extreme application—death.
The Maldives – Christianity is simply not tolerated. Christians who do get together to worship, they risk imprisonment or worse if discovered by the Muslim authorities. Bibles are banned, and tourists can be arrested for trying to bring them into the country.
Iran- Muslim converts to Christianity can be executed and have been. Has taken measures to eliminate proselytizing by non Muslims.
If anything the US needs to ban funding for Mosques from any country that imposes such things on other religions.
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And then there were the Crusades.
8)
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I wonder how many British yoofs even know the origins of that particular "celebration".
That would depend on their attendance at school during the one History lesson in Year 8 where it's touched upon.
;D
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No, honor killers are not all Muslim. They are all CULTURALLY taught that women are no more than personal property. The Koran does not condone these killings, but the Taliban does. Are you generalizing once again that all Muslims are also Taliban?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.htm
If I am to complain about anything, I'll continue to complain about Christians in positions of power that condoned and covered up the systematic sexual abuse of children in their care.
I'm so glad that you posted how different Muslim countries treat non-Muslims. Aren't you glad we're not like this here in the US? Doesn't this make you proud to be American, that we are so careful to protect the religious freedom on which our core values are based? You've proved my point, and I thank you.
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No, honor killers are not all Muslim. They are all CULTURALLY taught that women are no more than personal property. The Koran does not condone these killings, but the Taliban does. Are you generalizing once again that all Muslims are also Taliban?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.htm
Actually its far more than the taliban that condones them.
If I am to complain about anything, I'll continue to complain about Christians in positions of power that condoned and covered up the systematic sexual abuse of children in their care.
The correct thing would be those in the Catholic Church. And yes many have spoken out against the church covering up gay priests molesting children.
I'm so glad that you posted how different Muslim countries treat non-Muslims. Aren't you glad we're not like this here in the US? Doesn't this make you proud to be American, that we are so careful to protect the religious freedom on which our core values are based? You've proved my point, and I thank you.
Actually it does not prove anything for you.
For the simple fact that by the developers behind the project have already said this is a community center and not a Mosque. As such, any claims that it gets protection on religious grounds is false.
And then there were the Crusades.
8)
Very true Zach, but remember the First Crusade was to free Christians and regain the Holy Land which was taken in the Muslim conquest.
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The debasement of women is, unfortunately, not confined to the Taliban or to Muslims or to even only one culture. Did you bother to read the National Geographic article? Do you see how prevalent this practice is? The idea of women as property is timeless and universal. Do you concede that point?
Are Catholics not Christians? I doubt that a Muslim man in Pakistan or a Hindu in India reading about this disgrace would bother understanding the finer points of Catholicism vs Protestantism. They hear about Christians...priests, for God's sake...sexually abusing children. Just as you make generalizations about their religion, they will probably make generalizations about yours.
If the proposed mosque is just to be a community center, then why do you care where it is located? And I truly would like to know...why do you care about how little religious tolerance there is in other countries? If the King of Saudi Arabia doesn't allow churches in his country, why does it follow that we should not allow mosques here? I don't understand the logical basis of that argument, which tells me there isn't one. I truly do not understand why what Saudi Arabia does or what Iran does or what Mars does in this regard should influence what we do here in the United States of America. Why do you let the policies of those countries you abhor affect what you feel we should be doing in this Beacon of Democracy? Please please please...I really do want to understand this.
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Like any military adventure executed in the name of God, any truly holy purpose was sullied by greed and slaughter. The first Crusaders didn't just "recapture" Jerusalem; they slaughtered up to 70,000 people in the process and looted and pillaged the city. And since they enjoyed that so much, they decided to do it again and again, but by the third time, it became such an expensive enterprise to wage war that it seriously depleted the mostly French treasury. But what the hell...if you kill in the name of God, then it's OK, right?
I can give you a history lesson on the Spanish Reconquista if you'd like, complete with conversos and autos da fe. I can tell you how the Catholic Kings, Ferdinand and Isabella, financed Christopher Columbus' journey to "India" in the hopes that treasure would be found to help pay for shipping all Muslims out of Spain. Previous Christian kings in Spain had already shipped off the Jews. At that time, being in favor with the Pope meant having political power, and Spain wanted to show that they were unsullied by the filth of the Jews and the Muslims, so out they went. The Christian Kings puposely depopulated their country and impoverished most of Andalusia because getting rid of the "others", even those who they had forced to convert to Christianity, was more important than having a country's wealth and varied traditions intact. Our own religion has it's history of murderous intolerance.
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Are Catholics not Christians? I doubt that a Muslim man in Pakistan or a Hindu in India reading about this disgrace would bother understanding the finer points of Catholicism vs Protestantism. They hear about Christians...priests, for God's sake...sexually abusing children. Just as you make generalizations about their religion, they will probably make generalizations about yours.
Except my generalization has merit because it encompasses tens of millions of Muslims who live in those countries that are intolerant nearly completely of other religions.
If the proposed mosque is just to be a community center, then why do you care where it is located?
Actually its not a proposed mosque by the developers own words. So the better question is why are you continually trying to claim its something its not?
And I truly would like to know...why do you care about how little religious tolerance there is in other countries?
Because there are far more Muslims in those countries than in the US. So how the tens of millions of Muslims in those countries view others religions outweighs the .5% of population of Muslims in the US and how they view things.
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So much for peaceful and tolerant.
Iran Ayatollahs Issue Fatwas Against Koran-Burners
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-09-13/iran-ayatollahs-issue-fatwas-against-koran-burners.html
Indonesia: Muslims Call for Execution of Christians
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/indonesia-muslims-call-for-execution-of-christians.html
Pakistani Muslims Allegedly Poison Christian Employees to Death
http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/12585/
Nigerian Muslims Hack 500 Christian Villagers to Death With Machetes – Babies Scalped
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/03/nigerian-muslims-slaughter-500-christian-villagers-with-machetes-graphic-video/
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I can tell you how the Catholic Kings, Ferdinand and Isabella, financed Christopher Columbus' journey to "India" in the hopes that treasure would be found to help pay for shipping all Muslims out of Spain.
Now that just dosn't stack up. Looks like a lie to me and if that's a lie then the rest of Moosemum's "history" lesson is suspect too.
There was an active trade with India and countries further east in Columbus's time. So there was no need for "hopes" that treasure might be found. Nor the need to try a risky alternative route to the east by travelling west. The real reason was profit from trade. If Columbus found a shorter route, the Spanish could undercut the trade of other Europeans in the sale of spices and thus boost their profits.
We know the attitude of Europeans to Jews around that time: you only have to read Shakespere's play "The Merchant of Venice". But I'm sure that greed trumped racial abuse.
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Now that just dosn't stack up. Looks like a lie to me and if that's a lie then the rest of Moosemum's "history" lesson is suspect too.
"It doesn't stack up." and "Looks like a lie to me." are bases for a logical argument? It may "look" like a "lie" to you, but that doesn't mean that it is. May I recommend a book to you..."Blood and Faith; The Purging of Muslim Spain" by Matthew Carr. If you bother to read it, it may all just "stack up".
Yes, the Spanish were hoping to boost their profits, and on what do you think they might want to spend those profits? Oh, I know! The ethnic cleansing of Catholic Spain! It wasn't just "racial abuse"; it was ethnic cleansing, and it got expensive. All in the name of God, of the Holy Catholic Church.
Let me know when you've finished reading the book, and let me know what you think. I'd really be interested in discovering what you learned. I lived in Spain for a while and studied medieval Spanish history and literature, so I already knew about the conversos and themoriscos, but I had not fully appreciated the sheer scale of the expulsions.
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Can you explain why money was needed to expel the Muslims? According to that book they were expelled, for the most part to Africa, with only the goods they could carry.
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"It doesn't stack up." and "Looks like a lie to me." are bases for a logical argument? It may "look" like a "lie" to you, but that doesn't mean that it is. May I recommend a book to you..."Blood and Faith; The Purging of Muslim Spain" by Matthew Carr. If you bother to read it, it may all just "stack up".
Yes, the Spanish were hoping to boost their profits, and on what do you think they might want to spend those profits? Oh, I know! The ethnic cleansing of Catholic Spain! It wasn't just "racial abuse"; it was ethnic cleansing, and it got expensive. All in the name of God, of the Holy Catholic Church.
Let me know when you've finished reading the book, and let me know what you think. I'd really be interested in discovering what you learned. I lived in Spain for a while and studied medieval Spanish history and literature, so I already knew about the conversos and themoriscos, but I had not fully appreciated the sheer scale of the expulsions.
LOL
Come on now, tell the whole story. Say starting in the year 711 with Tarik ibn Ziyad and ending with the Moors (who were Muslim fanatics) dominating Spain for several hundred years.